<<< LEVVAX::ACC_USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]LEV_SOCIETY.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Unity, Coming Together, Lightening Up, and ... FUN! >-
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Note 46.0 Deep Thoughts....By Us 256 replies
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Run Brother! Run!" 7 lines 17-SEP-1993 13:21
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Well, lately, it seems that discussions are turning rather
philosophical, and since it doesn't really fit any where else, we'll
put here.
But thats just my opinion. :)
Tas
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Note 46.1 Deep Thoughts....By Us 1 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 57 lines 17-SEP-1993 13:32
-< My stuff >-
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<<< LEVVAX::ACC_USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]LEV_SOCIETY.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Unity, Coming Together, Lightening Up, and ... FUN! >-
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Note 47.0 The LEV Philosophy 1 reply
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 15 lines 17-SEP-1993 13:21
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Hiya... this is Sol... I have created this topic for the purpose of
discussing Philosophy... particularly, LEV Philosophy. As LEVers, it
is important for us to never be above re-examining our philosophy, for
a closed mind is a terrible waste.
Hearing the Philosophy of others, regardless of whether or not we
-believe- it, can only serve to strengthen our understanding of each
other.
This is not a religion topic, although certain aspects of religion
may be referenced if the author feels it helpful.
Be accepting of each other... remember, we are all here to have
fun.
Cheerio!
Sol
<<< LEVVAX::ACC_USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]LEV_SOCIETY.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Unity, Coming Together, Lightening Up, and ... FUN! >-
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Note 47.1 The LEV Philosophy 1 of 1
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 16 lines 17-SEP-1993 13:26
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jd brought up some good points... so did Ewokie... asserting to the
fact that Evil exists... and Tas brought up some excellent points
suggesting that Evil is as unconquerable as good, that the universe is
destined to be an equal mix.
I guess, the first BIG question is, what is Evil? How does one
define Evil? Is cheating on a test evil? Laughing at someone evil?
Stealing? What if you murdered someone in self-defense? In short,
what defines the parameters?
This is certainly no simple question, as Philosophers have been
struggling with it for hundreds of years.
If you have some ideas you would like to share, feel free...
What is Evil?
Sol
ADMIN - I have taken my topic down, and added it here... Tas beat me to
it by just a few minutes! Anyway, let it begin :)
Sol
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Note 46.2 Deep Thoughts....By Us 2 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Run Brother! Run!" 82 lines 17-SEP-1993 13:38
-< Ok, lets go. How do you define evil sol? >-
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<<< LEVVAX::ACC_USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]LEV_SOCIETY.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Unity, Coming Together, Lightening Up, and ... FUN! >-
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Note 5.123 I've learned... 123 of 135
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Run Brother! Run!" 75 lines 17-SEP-1993 10:28
-< Good vs Evil >-
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But because it is better, does that make it necessarily so? No.
In physics, there is a concept known as entropy. The tendency to
move towards disorder, chaos. To break down. It is as constant and
strong (some would say stronger, for over time, none can escape the
effects of entropy) as any other force in the universe.
I think its nice to beleive that evil will 'turn on itself and thus
destroy itself' and that is very true. Evil does that to itself. But
not as a whole. It does it individually. Or in small groups. But
evil as a whole will never topple. Why? Because with each new
generation of men (and women) born, evil is born again. It can't be
killed.
Of course, now you also have to look at the fact that one cannot
exist without the other. By the definition of good, there must be
evil. Kill one, you kill both. Nature seeks a balnce in all things,
and entropy fights it every step of the way. Its easy to say that if
you take one away, the other automatically wins, but I disagree. take
away entropy, and the balance is reached, but at what cost? If there
is a balance, there can be no change. Things stagnate. Take away the
balancing effect, and what do you get? Total destruction. No, they
both are at all times necessary.
I agree with you in yer ideas that good is better, more usual, more
harmonizing, but evil is just as strong, but in different ways. Good
generally has fewer peices (i mean by that there are less good forces
in terms of number) than evil does. Good works with those peices,
builds them up, makes them power houses. Evil on the other hand uses
masses of peices, but doesn't care about them. Its uses the person
until it rots and dies, and each person isn't all that strong, but
because there are so many of them, it balances out the few strong good
peices.
Now, lets discuss how they attack each other. The balancing effect
of nature, like good, builds. And it keeps on building. It does
nothing destructive unless it is necessary to continue building.
Entropy attacks what the balancing effect builds. In nature, entropy
cannot attack the builder itself, because they are forces, it attacks
what was built. But Evil can attack the builder, namely the good
person. And it does. It disrupts that which is harmonious and attacks
those that would restore order. Good does return fire. Good steps up
its efforts at building in hopes of out racing the other. And evil
steps up its efforts. And so on and so forth.
Now, this is where my basic stancein life comes from. Good is
cool. I like order and harmony and fixing things that is broken or
could just plain be improved on. But I refuse to be a target dummy for
the 'evil'. Unlike good, I will fight back and I do. But since good
doesn't give you the strength for that, one must turn to evil. But
tempered evil. I am in touch with my darker sides because I need them.
I understand them. And I use them. And for the most part, they have
served me well. My good side builds when it can and my dark side fends
off attack or attacks as necessary.
Now, of course, as i use my dark side, my dark side uses me. An
unfortunate reality, but one none the less. That is why I get
impatient, upset, sometimes even furious. And I hurt people. And I
don't like it. But, I consider it necessary. I need that strength to
survive, even though it be a double edged sword.
Now some of you may be thinking about something I said a few
paragraphs ago and shaking yer head. If I don't miss my guess, its the
part where i said that good lacks the ability to fight evil. By good's
very nature in the definitions we have used, it cannot. If you beleive
in Jesus, you'll recall he said to turn the other cheek, keep doing
good stuff, and if they kill you, well at least you died doing good.
Of course he turns right around and contradicts himself by banishing
demons and the like, but hey, if you believe in him, you gotta remember
he was human too. I just plain believe he was human with some good
ideas.
Anyways, want any clarification, mail me.
Tas
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Note 46.3 Deep Thoughts....By Us 3 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 6 lines 17-SEP-1993 15:17
-< Kinda religious, but my beleif. >-
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Well, my definition of evil is directly related to my religion. In my
beliefs evil is any idea, or force that aids Satan in drawing people
from God and Jesus. Basically, that which would cause you to act
against the directions of God in order to pull away from Him.
-Greg
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Note 46.4 Deep Thoughts....By Us 4 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Run Brother! Run!" 4 lines 17-SEP-1993 15:20
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So, if I am reading you right, without yer god as a reference
point, there is no evil?
Tas
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Note 46.5 Deep Thoughts....By Us 5 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 10 lines 17-SEP-1993 15:26
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Yes. But my belief is that in fact God and Satan are real. They are
real and eternal and have very wide and subtle effects on our
short-lived(comparatively) world, besides major things just as Jesus.
As you were explaining, all the "little bits" of evil can do a lot of
harm in great numbers. I agree. That's how Satan can lure people away
from God and go unnoticed under the cover of today's hustle & bustle
and changing technologies....
-Dank
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Note 46.6 Deep Thoughts....By Us 6 of 256
LEVVAX::JFO8808 "Jayce" 9 lines 17-SEP-1993 15:55
-< Ommmmmmmm.. >-
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But how can anything that's eternal be distinguished from anything
that lasts far longer than we do? In other words, what's the
difference between God and Satan (or Good and Evil) and, saying "that's
just the way things are." Why do these particular aspects of our
universe -- humankind's universe in particular -- get personified, but
others don't?
--- Jayce
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Note 46.7 Deep Thoughts....By Us 7 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "onothimagan" 9 lines 17-SEP-1993 20:06
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good thoughts - keep it up.
doesn't really do much on the levity dial, but I guess we gotta get
it out.
or maybe you guys are just evil. :)
jd
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Note 46.8 Deep Thoughts....By Us 8 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 18 lines 17-SEP-1993 22:04
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Part of LEV (although not in the dictionary definition of Levity) is
Acceptance, Unity, Harmony, and universal Good Will. This discussion
questions the validity of our beliefs, and questions our motives in
trying to bring about a better world(or at least conference).
The Idealist pictures a Perfect World... whether or not we attain
it is not so important as our ability to learn and improve ourselves.
The Good, according to Confucious, is Contageous... spreading from
household to household, and eventually encompassing whole communities
by example. Confucious referred to this principle (of inherent human
Good) as being called Jen (pronounced Ren). Confucious is one of the
greatest of the LEV philosophers.
I shall post more soon... esp in response to Tas' query...
Sol
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Note 46.9 Deep Thoughts....By Us 9 of 256
LEVVAX::BRC8940 "Houdini is still with us.." 13 lines 18-SEP-1993 14:29
-< How I try to stay Lev...(WHY THE WORLD ISN"T LEV) >-
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Evil I belive also is contagious, like a disease that consumes
and uses all the bad thoughts in your mind that we often as a society will
suppress..but they are still there....who has not about being bad
just for the sake of being bad? I say it is a disease because often
people will let anger about a unjust thing or person get the best of
them to the point rational thought matters no more.
The best way to stay Lev is to avoid getting angry when a situation
arises is to walk away for a while and not think about it till your
head clears itself of that anger.
Houdini
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Note 46.10 Deep Thoughts....By Us 10 of 256
LEVVAX::EJC7658 "sex & drums & rock 'n' roll" 28 lines 18-SEP-1993 16:01
-< Is Evil necessarily bad? >-
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I do not believe that evil is necessarily a bad thing. Before people
go off on some "oh My GOD! _SATANIST_!!!" tangent, I will say that I do
not practice such things. I do not believe that human nature is
inherently good. Nor is it inherently evil. I believe that there is a
balance of both. There has to be both. Otherwise, there is no good.
Good without evil becomes close-minded. Evil without good closes in on
itself and becomes nothing. Both always have to exist, and they do.
(I was a criminal justice major planning to specialize in forensic
psychology, so I know all about the evil in the human soul. I was also
a volunteer, so I got to see much of the good in it as well.)
The problem is balance. Some people have a greater level of good in
them. Some have more evil. It happens. It keeps the greater scheme
of things in balance. More often, people have about an even mix of
both. How and when we choose to listen to which is up to us. I know I
have listened to both on many occasions. I am not ashamed to admit
this, for I am a human being. It happens. It is entirely up to us
which path to choose, and most of us can change our ways if we so
desire. Neither path is necessarily "better"... one may be more
socially acceptable than the other, but as I stated before, both are
necessary.
It is our own decision.
My two cents,
Liz
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Note 46.11 Deep Thoughts....By Us 11 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 135 lines 19-SEP-1993 02:43
-< Sorry this is so long... but it is no easy question >-
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Now, it is interesting... definition means so much. Wrong acts ARE
done, immoral things happen every day, so is it not reasonable to
assume that there is evil in the world? Or that evil exists?
Certainly, it is reasonable... all who have received pain or witnessed
pain are inclined to term the source evil... maybe only a little bit
evil, maybe really-bad Satan evil.
I will suggest that people are inherantly good, but look around at
the war and the famine, death, conflict, and one could easilly question
and accurately oppose that stance. With good reason.
Seeing these things, I cannot debate that bad things happen. I am,
however, reminded that Evil is in the definition. Tas believes that
destruction, ie the Entropy Effect of Physics, is evil... or at least
part of evil. So, going by Tas' definition, I must say, "yes," evil
exists. Liz suggests that evil exists because we are all capable of
doing bad acts... wrong acts... and therefore, by her definition, I
must concede again that evil exists.
But I stated that I, personally, do not believe in evil. At this
point, most of you are probably looking at me like I'm nuts. Please,
for a moment, repress your inclination to think of me as a deluded,
terminally happy, unrealistic Barney. It's in the perspective...
Time for some definitions (these are mine... the dictionary is no
help).
Good - Any conscious action made with the intention of overall benefit
to those involved, while avoiding harm to said individuals wherever
possible. (those involved means anyone who could be conceivably
affected by the action).
Evil - Any conscious action made with the sole intention of causing
harm to the recipient(s), without any intention of benefit whatsoever... a
completely destructive act.
Neutral - Any act or event either (1) not intending either benefit or
harm of any kind or (2) any act or event behind which there is no thought.
There... my definitions. Let's take some examples...
Rockslide - Neutral. Even if it killed a whole village of people, it
was not Evil, because there was no thought behind it.
Brushing Your Teeth - Good. Because it is a conscious act, and it
involves benefit to those involved (you) it is a good act.
Psycho Axe-Murderer - Neutral. A psycho is insane, and thus not
capable of conscious choice... therefore, is neither.
Tas' Entropy - Neutral. It is a law of the universe, but whatever
comes of it, it has no thought behind it.
Fuzzy Bunny - Neutral. The Fuzzy Bunny acts on instinct, therefore
it is not capable of conscious thought either. See Psycho
Axe-Murderer
Politician - Totally corrupt in many cases, but not evil. Even if he
stabs the voters in the back to make a buck, the act was not made
with the sole intent of causing harm to the taxpayers. By the
politician's view, the wrong-act was necessary to accomplish a
greater, beneficial goal - ie, filling his pockets with money and
making his life happy. True, this is not Right, or good, and the
politician sure has a screwed up sense of things, but he is not evil.
13th Century Samuri - As you know, Samurais killed guys all the time,
but it is not Evil because it is based on a moral code which
intends to accomplish the morally right. It is based on a sense of
justice. We could say the same for WWII soldiers, Great Leaders,
Electric-Chair Operators, Suicide Doctors, People who blew away other
people for doing bad stuff to them, etc etc. That is not to say
any of this is Right, only that it cannot be Evil because it is
not done with the sole intention of causing destruction... it is
based on a sense of justice.
So, virtually everything we do is based on accomplishing a benefit
to ourselves or others... and the rest of our actions are considered
Neutral. Because Evil is a myth, we cannot have evil in us, and
therefore MUST be inherently good by default.
Good can exist without evil... if you take a universe in which
everything is either black or white, and then you take away all the
white, the black is still black. People just wouldn't have a name for
it anymore.
Now here's the tricky one... what about the guy who goes into
McDonald's, hoses down a bunch of people with a machine gun, then tests
out completely sane and has no discernable motive for his act? And
when the guy is asked why he did it, he just says, "I don't know" , and
he really doesn't? Like if I just walked outside and shot someone...
for the heck of it... conscioulsy, and with my sanity intact. No
reason, just did it.
Now, it's not Neutral, 'cuz it had conscious thought toward causing
harm. Not Good, because Good avoids harm whenever possible. Now, it
LOOKS pretty evil... Evil is anything that is done with the SOLE
intention of causing harm... if we can find one thing, even one thing
that suggests this was NOT the sole intention of the action, then the
man is not evil, either.
And here's where the faith comes in. I can't prove this part to
you, so you either believe me or you don't. -I- believe that
subconsciously, a person who did such a thing was trying to fill a
psychological need of one kind or another... what this need could be,
who knows? It could have been created as a ressult of a bad childhood,
faulty wiring, not enough zinc, who knows? The point is, the act was
made, at least in part, with subconsciously filling this need in mind.
Again, this does not make it -right-. Only not evil.
Only the Biblical Satan is Evil, for Evil is an absolute lack of
good. But I don't believe in Satan, and so I don't believe in Evil.
There ya go... kinda long... sorry... but it should be thorough. So,
as you see, it's all a matter of perspective. Why choose this
perspective over another? In the end, Good and Evil are only labels we
choose to place on objects or events. They have no reality, like a
wall or building does. They are mere ideas, for purposes of
description. Really, they are whatever we choose to say they are.
So why choose this perspective over another? 'cuz I like
this one better, that's why. Simple as that.
Here's a Line for you...
O-----------------------=================O
E potential good Good P
v E
i R
l F
E
C
T
potential good is the area where an act is a mix of unnecessary harm
and benefit.
Perfect is a good so extreme that no harm can ever come of it.
Sol
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Note 46.12 Deep Thoughts....By Us 12 of 256
LEVVAX::JFO8808 "Jayce" 29 lines 19-SEP-1993 11:23
-< Uh huh huh huh huh... >-
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Uh, so you're saying that people do things for their own good, or
because they don't know what they're doing, and thus, there is no evil
because it is not perceived as such by the party performing the action?
Based on that, if the KKK burned someone alive because they thought
this person would be more useful as charcoal and bonemeal, that would
be good because it accomplishes some goal of the KKK.
However, the surviving members of this pile-of-ashes' family would not
think of this as a good act. They would perceive the act as evil, so
evil exists.
In fact, by the same respect, one can perform an evil act. For
example, something you would call neutral is really evil. If someone
went crazy and decided that it would be a great idea that they should
chop off their toes, it would be a neutral act. However, once this
person gets better and realizes that they can't stand up anymore,
they'll say, "gee, that was evil -- what got into me."
A corrolary to this is that good and evil are moral judgements,
nothing that is "real" is inherently good or evil. (I.e.: evil is
evil, but that's a concept and isn't "real.") Moral judgements are
performed by people, which lends itself to argument because people
won't agree on these things. This means that no act can be good or
evil until it is evaluated and assigned a moral judgement by someone.
--- Jayce
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Note 46.13 Deep Thoughts....By Us 13 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 21 lines 19-SEP-1993 12:41
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Under my definition, the KKK torching someone is not Good, Evil, OR
Neutral! Go figure!
Not Good, because it involved un-necessary harm to accomplish its
"beneficial" goal.
Not Evil because those doing it were doing it not purely to be
destructive, but with a sense of justice in mind.
Not Neutral, because it involved conscious thought.
Really, it would fit into the realm of Potential Good, ie - a falwed
concept of good. Those involved WERE trying to accomplish a benefit,
but they are accomplishing that by means of unnecessary harm.
Something CAN cause necessary harm and be good - ie, giving someone a
shot.
Sol
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Note 46.14 Deep Thoughts....By Us 14 of 256
LEVVAX::JMS3520 "Twang...Twang...Twang" 8 lines 19-SEP-1993 12:45
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Yea...I agree with Sol. It's all a matter of perspective upon was is
good and what is evil....Take the Aztecs for example. They believed in
human sacrifices and they concidered it good....you now in day and age,
we would consider it un-ethical and immoral.
--Phantomstalker
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Note 46.15 Deep Thoughts....By Us 15 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 "VAXMAN Returns!" 10 lines 19-SEP-1993 12:46
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I know how to dampen this idea...
Without evil, good would not exist; because they are comparisions of
the other...
A<-->B
Do away with one, and the other disappears also...
TLD
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Note 46.16 Deep Thoughts....By Us 16 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 11 lines 19-SEP-1993 12:58
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Nope... if ya look closely (at my long) post, I address that one
thus...
You have a world of black and white. No other colors. Take away all
the white and turn it to black. The black is still black... we simply
would have no name for it, because EVERYTHING would be black.
Likewise, Good could exist without Evil... we just wouldn't have a
name for it.
Sol
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Note 46.17 Deep Thoughts....By Us 17 of 256
LEVVAX::JMB3577 "A Boy Genius for every season" 5 lines 19-SEP-1993 13:34
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"The question should never be one of 'Are we read for the future?'
The question should be 'Is the future ready for us?'!"
My quote, 1993
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Note 46.18 Deep Thoughts....By Us 18 of 256
LEVVAX::EJC7658 "Happy Birthday Jamin!" 7 lines 19-SEP-1993 14:40
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Likewise did I address the fact that both have to exist for either to
exist.
Liz
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Note 46.19 Deep Thoughts....By Us 19 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 7 lines 19-SEP-1993 16:13
-< I can imagine a wo it seems possible in theory, no? >-
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Yes, Liz... Good without Evil becomes close-minded, Evil without good
kills itself.
How so? Please elaborate.
Sol
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Note 46.20 Deep Thoughts....By Us 20 of 256
LEVVAX::JFO8808 "Jayce" 15 lines 19-SEP-1993 22:48
-< You know,... >-
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Re: 46.16
Since we have a word for good, does that necessarily prove that evil
exists? As you say, if everything were black, it would still exist but
there would be no name for it. Thus, why do both words "good" and
"evil" exist if there is only good (and neutral)?
Re: Perceptions
Good and evil are perceptions. Nothing >is< good nor evil. Someone
can perceive good or perceive evil, but that is a reaction of a
sentient being to something.
--- Jayce
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Note 46.21 Deep Thoughts....By Us 21 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 6 lines 19-SEP-1993 22:56
-< According to me >-
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We have a word for "circle", and yet there is no such thing in real
space... True Evil serves as a measuring point... an absolute for
reference... but in fact, is not real.
Sol
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Note 46.22 Deep Thoughts....By Us 22 of 256
LEVVAX::JFO8808 "Jayce" 5 lines 19-SEP-1993 23:11
-< :) >-
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Likewise, there is no such thing as good either. It is an approachable
limit.
--- Jayce
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Note 46.23 Deep Thoughts....By Us 23 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 5 lines 19-SEP-1993 23:14
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Nope... that is Perfection. See my nifty chart. (Boy, i thought of
everything, eh? Ain't I a stinker?)
Sol
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Note 46.24 Deep Thoughts....By Us 24 of 256
LEVVAX::EMW2148 6 lines 20-SEP-1993 03:55
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I'm not sayhing antyhhng in this section as i'm too tired to think, and
I ll start my philosophical ramblings another time...
BloOdShEd
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Note 46.25 Deep Thoughts....By Us 25 of 256
LEVVAX::JFO8808 "Jayce" 27 lines 20-SEP-1993 10:42
-< Good & Bad maybe? >-
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Re: 46.23
So you're saying that there are a number of events or actions that are
completely good (not potentially good?) That is, a good event is one
where the actor is perfectly benefitted. Or do you say this is
perfection?
Re: Sol's Good & Evil theory altogether
I think the whole problem with your theory revolves around the point
that you are not acknowledging the feelings of the recipient of some
event.
For example, take the case of the mugging. From the mugger's
perspective, the action is good (if not potentially good) -- he stabbed
someone, but he's ahead $50. However, from the "muggee's" perspective,
it's an evil act because he's got an extra hole and minus fifty bucks.
In fact, let's even go as far as to say that the muggee was fully aware
that he would be mugged (by threat perhaps), knew that he could not
stay the mugger, and decided to meet with the mugger anyway. Thus, he
was under full rational logical control, but in the end, he did not
benefit. I'd say this was more evil than good -- even by your
definition, but I suspect you'll say it's a good act because the muggee
restored his self esteem or something... :)
--- Jayce
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Note 46.26 Deep Thoughts....By Us 26 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Being held hostage by Ewok. Help" 215 lines 20-SEP-1993 11:09
-< ok, now were getting to the good stuff >-
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> Time for some definitions (these are mine... the dictionary is no
> help).
>
> Good - Any conscious action made with the intention of overall benefit
> to those involved, while avoiding harm to said individuals wherever
> possible. (those involved means anyone who could be conceivably
> affected by the action).
>
> Evil - Any conscious action made with the sole intention of causing
> harm to the recipient(s), without any intention of benefit whatsoever... a
> completely destructive act.
Ok, here's where I have a major problem with your definition's, Sol.
You claim good is any intention what so ever that is even remotedly related to
the good of society or individuals and yet you limit evil to acts whose sole
intent is pure evil. I don't see how you can say that. And I'll show you why.
> Neutral - Any act or event either (1) not intending either benefit or
> harm of any kind or (2) any act or event behind which there is no thought.
>
> There... my definitions. Let's take some examples...
>
> Rockslide - Neutral. Even if it killed a whole village of people, it
> was not Evil, because there was no thought behind it.
The rockslide is nothing but an occurrence, it can be neither good,
evil, or nuetral. WHy? There was no intention behind it, unless someone
purposefully set it off.
> Brushing Your Teeth - Good. Because it is a conscious act, and it
> involves benefit to those involved (you) it is a good act.
Again, this is not necessarily good. Yes, it is good hygene, and will
make your teeth last longer, but a good act?
> Psycho Axe-Murderer - Neutral. A psycho is insane, and thus not
> capable of conscious choice... therefore, is neither.
I don't necessarily agree with you here. Depends on the psycho.
> Tas' Entropy - Neutral. It is a law of the universe, but whatever
> comes of it, it has no thought behind it.
I never meant to say that entropy was evil, it was just an analogy.
But like the rockslide, I say it is none of the above. There is no intention
behind it, unless you believe in satan and say he is the cause of it.
> Fuzzy Bunny - Neutral. The Fuzzy Bunny acts on instinct, therefore
> it is not capable of conscious thought either. See Psycho
> Axe-Murderer
Whoa. I disagree here. Animals are capable of conscious thought and
DO NOT live by instinct alone. They are smart. And I have seen some pretty
mean critters just as I have seen some gentle good ones.
> Politician - Totally corrupt in many cases, but not evil. Even if he
> stabs the voters in the back to make a buck, the act was not made
> with the sole intent of causing harm to the taxpayers. By the
> politician's view, the wrong-act was necessary to accomplish a
> greater, beneficial goal - ie, filling his pockets with money and
> making his life happy. True, this is not Right, or good, and the
> politician sure has a screwed up sense of things, but he is not evil.
This is insane. And this is where I think your defintions are screwy.
This type of person is intentionally screwing people. He is intentionally
messing up people's lives. And for whose benefits? His own. How can you say
that is not evil? You talk about evil as if it must be absolute at all times
to exist, well then I argue back that no one is good because at no time is
anyone absolute good. By your defintions, we must conclude that everyone is
nuetral and free to do whatever they wish. And it can be rationalized any way
we want it to be. He shot his mom four times in the chest because she wouldn't
let him go to the dance. He was doing a good act, cause kids should have some
freedom. He was doing an evil act cause he shot his mom four times in the
chest over something as anal as a dance. Either way the rational thought can
be pointed out and either the boy can be argued good, evil, or just plain
nuetral.
> 13th Century Samuri - As you know, Samurais killed guys all the time,
> but it is not Evil because it is based on a moral code which
> intends to accomplish the morally right. It is based on a sense of
> justice. We could say the same for WWII soldiers, Great Leaders,
> Electric-Chair Operators, Suicide Doctors, People who blew away other
> people for doing bad stuff to them, etc etc. That is not to say
> any of this is Right, only that it cannot be Evil because it is
> not done with the sole intention of causing destruction... it is
> based on a sense of justice.
Because someone believes it is right doesn't make it right. If you
argue that, yes, evil ceases to exist. Not because it isn't there, but because
you refuse to identify it. Anything can be rationalized.
> So, virtually everything we do is based on accomplishing a benefit
> to ourselves or others... and the rest of our actions are considered
> Neutral. Because Evil is a myth, we cannot have evil in us, and
> therefore MUST be inherently good by default.
If evil is a myth, then so must good. You cannot say there is a
partially good act without evil. What makes it only partially good? Something
must detract from the act. Since good + good = good, it can't be more good.
Good + neutral = good, because neutral is nothing, it is a big 0. So whats
left? Good + evil = x where x varies depending the magnitude of good and the
magnitude of evil. It MUST be.
> Good can exist without evil... if you take a universe in which
> everything is either black or white, and then you take away all the
> white, the black is still black. People just wouldn't have a name for
> it anymore.
You base everything you speak of on perception, but what happens to
perception if there is nothing to compare it to? It is gone. It dissolves.
You are left with one view, one way, that encompasses all of life. And it is
no longer good, nor evil. It is like the perfect Marxist society in which
everyone is an automon. But for what? Without perspective, how can you
improve on anything? You would never have known or seen anything different
to compare it with. And know matter which of the two gets destroyed (good or
evil0, they both cease to exist. Things simply are. Are you willing to say
that life is just the way it is, and it can neither improve or deteriorate?
Sol, by your definitions, that is what you are saying.
> Now here's the tricky one... what about the guy who goes into
> McDonald's, hoses down a bunch of people with a machine gun, then tests
> out completely sane and has no discernable motive for his act? And
> when the guy is asked why he did it, he just says, "I don't know" , and
> he really doesn't? Like if I just walked outside and shot someone...
> for the heck of it... conscioulsy, and with my sanity intact. No
> reason, just did it.
> Now, it's not Neutral, 'cuz it had conscious thought toward causing
> harm. Not Good, because Good avoids harm whenever possible. Now, it
> LOOKS pretty evil... Evil is anything that is done with the SOLE
> intention of causing harm... if we can find one thing, even one thing
> that suggests this was NOT the sole intention of the action, then the
> man is not evil, either.
If you cannot call it good or nuetral, then there must be something
else. Evil.
> And here's where the faith comes in. I can't prove this part to
> you, so you either believe me or you don't. -I- believe that
> subconsciously, a person who did such a thing was trying to fill a
> psychological need of one kind or another... what this need could be,
> who knows? It could have been created as a ressult of a bad childhood,
> faulty wiring, not enough zinc, who knows? The point is, the act was
> made, at least in part, with subconsciously filling this need in mind.
> Again, this does not make it -right-. Only not evil.
You have just said that if I have a need to fill, then it is ok to do.
By saying that it isn't evil, you must declare it nuetral and therefore
acceptable. I can't believe that.
> Only the Biblical Satan is Evil, for Evil is an absolute lack of
> good. But I don't believe in Satan, and so I don't believe in Evil.
Good must be, again by your own definition, the absolute lack of evil.
If evil doesn't exist, you can't define good, so therefore it doesn't exist
either.
> There ya go... kinda long... sorry... but it should be thorough. So,
> as you see, it's all a matter of perspective. Why choose this
> perspective over another? In the end, Good and Evil are only labels we
> choose to place on objects or events. They have no reality, like a
> wall or building does. They are mere ideas, for purposes of
> description. Really, they are whatever we choose to say they are.
> So why choose this perspective over another? 'cuz I like
> this one better, that's why. Simple as that.
From this paragraph, you just said that the mind is the only reality
that exists. I disagree. There is a reality outside of the mind, the mind
recognizes it and works with it. I mean besides physical reality.
> Here's a Line for you...
>
>
> O-----------------------=================O
>
> E potential good Good P
> v E
> i R
> l F
> E
> C
> T
> potential good is the area where an act is a mix of unnecessary harm
> and benefit.
>
> Perfect is a good so extreme that no harm can ever come of it.
>
Ok Sol, but yer line is wrong. It must be....
O-----------------=====================O
N potential good Good P
U E
E R
T F
R E
A C
L T
If you do not believe in evil, then you cannot use it for a refence
point. It would have no validity, and therefor anything you base on it has no
validity.
>
>
> Sol
>
Sol, I disagree with a lot because a lot seems very one sided to me.
You merely dismiss half of the problem, but acknowledge the rest.
Tas
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Note 46.27 Deep Thoughts....By Us 27 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 5 lines 20-SEP-1993 12:31
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Wow. That was deep. Coll though.
Tas, you should'a been a literature critic. Your critical thinking is
very sharp. I like it.
-Dank
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Note 46.28 Deep Thoughts....By Us 28 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 27 lines 20-SEP-1993 13:12
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You are articulate, Tas! And there is much to respond to... do not
worry! I shain't disappoint ya!
In the meantime, perhaps you will understand this line as a better
representation of what I'm trying to say...
E===========/+++++++++P
V E
I bad good R
L F merely replace "potential good" w/ "bad"
E
C You see, Tas, Evil is Absolute.
T Good is not its mirror-image,
I good just is.
O Perfection, on the other hand, is.
N Perfection is the Good which can exist
with NO negative side-effects whatsoever
to anyone or anything involved.
Just something to hold your views
against in the meantime...
I shall post more soon :)
Sol
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Note 46.29 Deep Thoughts....By Us 29 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Being held hostage by Ewok. Help" 39 lines 20-SEP-1993 15:12
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>
>
> E===========/+++++++++P
> V E
> I bad good R
> L F merely replace "potential good" w/ "bad"
> E
> C You see, Tas, Evil is Absolute.
> T Good is not its mirror-image,
> I good just is.
> O Perfection, on the other hand, is.
> N Perfection is the Good which can exist
> with NO negative side-effects whatsoever
> to anyone or anything involved.
>
>
> Sol
Ahhh. I see what yer saying a little better now. You don't like the
word evil, to you it implies absoluteness. So therefore, you say evil cannot
exist because the absolute cannot exist. I see. And I'm not sure if I agree
with that statement or not, because I am agnostic. The absolute evil would
imply a satan or other all powerful good lacking force. But I argue still,
that your use of perfection is the same as evil.
Now, if perfection, an unattainable goal at best, can influence people
to work for the betterment of himself and the rest of society, why can't pure
evil, another unattainable goal, influence people to do bad things for the sake
of that bad thing? Do you see what I am saying? Even in this way of
describing evil and perfection, which may be no more than illusions are own
minds have set up, you must acknowledge its existence. Reality of mind, which
I call illusion, is sometimes more real than the physical universe or even the
truth.
But I think I see where you are coming from now, at least a little
better anyways. I'll have to think about it some more.
Tas
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Note 46.30 Deep Thoughts....By Us 30 of 256
LEVVAX::JMS3520 "Blade Runner" 4 lines 20-SEP-1993 16:15
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Sorry guys.....I'm lost...you know I have a fragile mind....I'm kinda
dim ya know :)
--IntelligenceStalker
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Note 46.31 Deep Thoughts....By Us 31 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 7 lines 20-SEP-1993 19:14
-< question for Sol >-
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Sol, I gotta question for you: If good and evil are terms that are
defined by each individual on their own scale, how can you say that
good can exist without evil? Because say maybe in your mind,
everything is good, could be a little good with a lot of bad in my
mind? Do you get where I'm coming from, or did I totaly lose you all?
The Anti-Christ
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Note 46.32 Deep Thoughts....By Us 32 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 16 lines 21-SEP-1993 09:38
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If I understand Sol correctly, I think he would say that eventually
as people approach perfection, everyone would have the same ideas and
thus good wouldn't be dependent on perspective anymore. It would
simply be.
However, in the mean time, that would be the case.
But is it completely dependent on perspective? I would argue no,
that there is a right and wrong, absolute boundaries. Unfortunately,
in believing that, I also have to believe in some sort of higher power
which existed or still does exist to lay down these absolutes. Whether
it be a god or just some force of the universe, who knows?
The god/no god will be a goody to discuss next. :)
Tas
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Note 46.33 Deep Thoughts....By Us 33 of 256
LEVVAX::JED5264 "Q-Tips are better than sex" 9 lines 21-SEP-1993 10:41
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what better time to start than now. I believe in fate. And there has
to be some bad that would trigger other things to happen, which
themselves might be bad, but might trigger something good happening as
a result. I don't know. I'm not awake yet. I'll come back when I've
thought it out in a way that you can understand me.
J
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Note 46.34 Deep Thoughts....By Us 34 of 256
LEVVAX::TLR8799 "Whaddya mean, Doc? I'm not insane?" 19 lines 21-SEP-1993 10:52
-< Sorry to be so shallow...be patient! >-
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Here's my deep thought....
uhh, I guess I don't have any. Well, gotta go!
The Joker
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Note 46.35 Deep Thoughts....By Us 35 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 38 lines 21-SEP-1993 10:56
-< A little more... >-
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Yes, Tas, now you are beginning to hit it on the nose...
Good works better than evil... which is why people are more inclined
towards it than they are towards evil. Evil is complete lack of
benefit. Who would willingly want to achieve that?
Yes, Tas, (and others have brought up this point) Perfection, you could
argue, may be impossible to achieve... I have no strong opinion on
this. However, the idea of Perfection is something we all strive for,
it is an idea (like Evil) that we can use for a reference point.
As time goes on, we will grow in wisdom and reject more and more of
what is harmful to us... we all attempt to rid ourselves of
un-necessary harm.
There is a Higher Form of Perfection (ask Plato!) just as there is a
pure mathematical definition of a circle. We do not need a god to
define perfection, just as we do not need a god to define a circle.
Of course, that doesn't mean there can't -be- a God, simply that the
meaning of perfection is not contingent on him.
Now, we know that Perfection is the epitome of Good, under which no
harm whatsoever comes. What, exactly, is that? What is the correct
morality we must follow to achieve it? And what will it be like when
we approach it?
I cannot answer that. There is a definite answer (the higher form)
but we may or may not be capable of determining exactly what that is.
Is it ever right to kill? Is it ever Good to steal? The definition of
Perfection could tell us those things. But we may take a lifetime to
determine that small part of it.
So we go on... we make value judgements on what is Good and what is
not. Through much time, and through a little trial-and-error, we shall
one day achieve our goal of universal peace. (Not Perfection, but
close enough to satisfy us)
Sol
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Note 46.36 Deep Thoughts....By Us 36 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 24 lines 21-SEP-1993 11:07
-< Matter of Perspective... I prefer this one >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(For Anti-Christ)
You may define Good & Evil any way you like... if you define Evil
differently than me, sure, something could be Evil.
To me, Evil is an absolute. There's "bad" which is someting mostly
non-beneficial, and then there's Evil, the Great Bad, which is Pure
Bad, ie, No Beneficial qualities whatsoever.
However, I do not favor the term "bad" ... I only offer it that you
might understand. I prefer "potential good," for no action is
completely without benefit. I say the glass is a tenth of the way
full... a tenth of the way good... not 9/10ths Bad.
That is a perspective call. You may use whatever perspective you
see fit. But if it DOES come down to a matter of opinion, a matter of
preference in how you choose to perceive, I say why not take the more
optimistic of the two perspectives? I function no less efficiently for
it, and the world looks like an OK place to me. Some improvements here
and there would be nice, yes, but altogether not a bad place.
In other words, why not see it that way? All other things
constant, might as well choose half-full.
Sol
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Note 46.37 Deep Thoughts....By Us 37 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "Where's the toast?" 21 lines 21-SEP-1993 12:12
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> Good works better than evil... which is why people are more inclined
> towards it than they are towards evil. Evil is complete lack of
> benefit. Who would willingly want to achieve that?
You claim evil to be a complete lack of benifit. Again, this has
to be placed into perspective. Yes, from your or my standpoint, evil
may be inherantly lacking in benefit. But from those initiating the
quote "evil deeds" there must be certain pre-meditations, with goals in
mind, which are most likely beneficial to whoever is the "evildoer".
Robbing a bank, of course, sucks for the people that run the bank,
own the bank and have money in the bank. But the guy who took it is
sure benefiting from it. And what if he goes out and spends it on
starving children in the middle East? (All these stupid hypothetical
questions).
Does this make any sense? I makes sense to me, almost. But then
again, I'm new to this critical thinking/deep philosophy thing.
--Cav
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Note 46.38 Deep Thoughts....By Us 38 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 5 lines 21-SEP-1993 13:35
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Exactly, Cav... that is precisely why Evil doesn't exist. (See my
original post for all the good details)
Sol
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Note 46.39 Deep Thoughts....By Us 39 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 9 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:06
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No, Sol. I can't agree with that at all. Everything is
justifiable then, everything is right. There could be no rules, no
laws. Your own two holy laws get flushed down the toilet becasue I
could argue that flaming someone is beneficial to me and therefore
good.
Can't beleive it.
Tas
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Note 46.40 Deep Thoughts....By Us 40 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 13 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:08
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ok, hypothetically...
...what if a man who had a week's supply of food flew to
Ethiopia. when he landed his plane, he landed near a starving tribe.
say the tribe's people had just killed a very very small antelope and
this guy (with all of his food on the plane) took the antelope from the
starving tribe. you are telling me that this guy is potentially good?
I could kill someone that I absolutely hated, and based on your
definition, it could be seen as potentially good because it made me
feel better to have this person out of existence.
why do I find this total definition a huge fallacy?
Pook
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Note 46.41 Deep Thoughts....By Us 41 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 73 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Tas, now you are beginning to hit it on the nose...
>
> Good works better than evil... which is why people are more inclined
> towards it than they are towards evil. Evil is complete lack of
> benefit. Who would willingly want to achieve that?
Ummm. Again, I have to disagree. Ideally good would work better than
evil in that eventually everyone would be equal and get what they need and
possibly even what they want. There would be ultimate trust in everyone and no
hostility what so ever. But there is a human emotion that serves good and evil
and is present in all of us. It is called ambition. Ambition, the desire to
be better, to be stronger, to be the best, would never allow some people to
exist in such a society. They couldn't handle it. They would have to be
better. they would need competetion of some sort. And some wouldn't settle
for being equal. They would want the power. People inclined to evil scorn
good for what it offers. Peace is their enemy. Equality is a nightmare to
them. Evil is based on power and the power that evil promises is a strong lure
for many people. So no, good is better for good people, evil is better for
evil people. There is benefit for both sides. And people are not more
inclined to good than evil. I would say its the other way around.
> Yes, Tas, (and others have brought up this point) Perfection, you could
> argue, may be impossible to achieve... I have no strong opinion on
> this. However, the idea of Perfection is something we all strive for,
> it is an idea (like Evil) that we can use for a reference point.
>
> As time goes on, we will grow in wisdom and reject more and more of
> what is harmful to us... we all attempt to rid ourselves of
> un-necessary harm.
I disagree. People have been on this planet for a million years.
Civilizations have risen and fallen for the past 20000 thousand or so years.
Things ain't getting any better. In fact, you often see in history where
mankind regressed greatly. The dark ages. the fall of Rome. etc.
> There is a Higher Form of Perfection (ask Plato!) just as there is a
> pure mathematical definition of a circle. We do not need a god to
> define perfection, just as we do not need a god to define a circle.
> Of course, that doesn't mean there can't -be- a God, simply that the
> meaning of perfection is not contingent on him.
Since you believe that good is dependent on perspective, then this is
true. But I don't beleive good is dependent totally on perspective, I must
disagree. But I have trouble myself believing this for other reasons because I
am agnostic. There must be a god to define the rules and I don't like that
idea very much.
> Now, we know that Perfection is the epitome of Good, under which no
> harm whatsoever comes. What, exactly, is that? What is the correct
> morality we must follow to achieve it? And what will it be like when
> we approach it?
> I cannot answer that. There is a definite answer (the higher form)
> but we may or may not be capable of determining exactly what that is.
> Is it ever right to kill? Is it ever Good to steal? The definition of
> Perfection could tell us those things. But we may take a lifetime to
> determine that small part of it.
True. But if you say there is a definite answer then there must also
be a defintite set of rules, which means you CANNOT base good on floating
reference points. Read: The absolutes must exist and they are constant.
> So we go on... we make value judgements on what is Good and what is
> not. Through much time, and through a little trial-and-error, we shall
> one day achieve our goal of universal peace. (Not Perfection, but
> close enough to satisfy us)
Not to be too terribly pessimistic, but this never happen. For good to
work there must be trust and it takes only one bad seed to take that trust and
flush it down the toilet. Then the world goes to hell all anew.
> Sol
Tas
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Note 46.42 Deep Thoughts....By Us 42 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 46 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potentially Good is not the same as good.
Something can be Potentially Good and yet still wrong.
The Potentially Good is accomplishing a benefit while using
un-necessary violence/invoking un-necessary harm in the process.
Potentially Good means it is not totally Evil, and therefore, has the
Potential to move towards the good. That is what I am saying.
If you find this hard to comprehend, please substitute your word,
"bad," in its place, if that makes it clearer for you. I simply prefer
to concentrate on the fact that there is something positive in
everything, thus the term Potential Good.
Let us say that the slimeball from Pookie's note took the antelope...
flew off with it, and had a banquet. Let us say that this guy has lead
his whole life this way... and this was his most despicable act yet.
The starving tribe starves. As a result, something twangs in the
money-grubber, and he decides that he IS a slimeball. He goes to
extensive counselling, and years later, changes to a humanitarian in an
effort to make up for his Crime. Millions of people benefit, either
directly or indirectly. The tribe is still dead, but the day that
happened, the seed was planted for something better to come.
Or perhaps hundreds of people were outraged by this cold-blooded act,
it got lots of publicity, and as a result, food was sent to the tribe,
saving them all.
Yes, wildly hypothetical, but so is some guy with a plane full of food
stealing an antelope.
The point is this... all actions carry a Potential for Good... even if
the action itself was not good. I do not pretend that such an action
isn't WRONG, it just isn't EVIL. The two aren't the same to me.
People are basically good... all that is not good moves towards it.
Let me pose you this question to re-enforce my point...
By YOUR definition, how many Evil people have you met in your lifetime?
How many Good?
I am willing to bet the Good far outweighs the Evil.
Sol
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Note 46.43 Deep Thoughts....By Us 43 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 39 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:40
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> (For Anti-Christ)
>
> You may define Good & Evil any way you like... if you define Evil
> differently than me, sure, something could be Evil.
> To me, Evil is an absolute. There's "bad" which is someting mostly
> non-beneficial, and then there's Evil, the Great Bad, which is Pure
> Bad, ie, No Beneficial qualities whatsoever.
Ok. Now you have me slightly confused. You have been arguing that
evil doesn't exist and now you say it does. Help?
> However, I do not favor the term "bad" ... I only offer it that you
> might understand. I prefer "potential good," for no action is
> completely without benefit. I say the glass is a tenth of the way
> full... a tenth of the way good... not 9/10ths Bad.
Ummm. This is a very dangerous outlook to me. It blinds you to half
of the story. While it is nice to say everyone should be optimistic, there is
a time when you must recognize reality and say, 'this is bad.' Otherwise, the
bad will consume you because till the end of the fight good will still be
saying all is not bad, after all, look at that small speck of good. And good
gets consumed without a fight. No, you must be just as willing to recognize
the bad of a situation as you are the good.
> That is a perspective call. You may use whatever perspective you
> see fit. But if it DOES come down to a matter of opinion, a matter of
> preference in how you choose to perceive, I say why not take the more
> optimistic of the two perspectives? I function no less efficiently for
> it, and the world looks like an OK place to me. Some improvements here
> and there would be nice, yes, but altogether not a bad place.
> In other words, why not see it that way? All other things
> constant, might as well choose half-full.
Ignorance is bliss. I can't agree with it.
> Sol
Tas
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Note 46.44 Deep Thoughts....By Us 44 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 29 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:52
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>Let us say that the slimeball from Pookie's note took the antelope...
>flew off with it, and had a banquet. Let us say that this guy has lead
>his whole life this way... and this was his most despicable act yet.
>
>The starving tribe starves. As a result, something twangs in the
>money-grubber, and he decides that he IS a slimeball. He goes to
>extensive counselling, and years later, changes to a humanitarian in an
>effort to make up for his Crime. Millions of people benefit, either
>directly or indirectly. The tribe is still dead, but the day that
>happened, the seed was planted for something better to come.
>
>Or perhaps hundreds of people were outraged by this cold-blooded act,
>it got lots of publicity, and as a result, food was sent to the tribe,
>saving them all.
>Yes, wildly hypothetical, but so is some guy with a plane full of food
>stealing an antelope.
ok, and what if none of this happens and this guy just lives his
life as if it never happened? still not evil, eh?
and this person is justified in allowing a group to die in order to
see the error in his ways. then go get counseling and change. it is
his right to take their lives so he can change. nah! I don't think
so. that is pretty self-indulgent and if you read the Satanic Bible
you would see that is the foundation for their beliefs...self-indulgence.
Pook
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Note 46.45 Deep Thoughts....By Us 45 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 33 lines 21-SEP-1993 14:57
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I do not ask you to agree, Tas. Only to understand that there is
another perspective.
As for ignorance, one need not consider something Evil in order to see
that it poses a threat to one's person... one can look at a snake,
consider it as not evil, and still avoid its venomous bite.
One can see a human being trying to take advantage of him, consider
that he simply has more to learn, and yet not fall victem to his
attempts.
Hanging Evil and Bad around your neck is like a weight. And it is an
un-necessary one. At least in my book.
I have no need to feel anger towards those people... the concept of
Evil sets up a me-vs-them attitude. I don't care for that. I would
prefer to view the big picture, that everything is connected, and that
"evil" comes for a reason. To me, labeling things or people Evil gets
away from the point, because it is like we are trying to separate them
from us.
I have never considered anyone evil once I really understood them. One
needs not agree to understand. Sometimes, ignoring the good blinds
you, by closing you to their perspective. If you can write them off as
Evil, there is no further need to guess their motivations and feelings,
for by labelling them Evil, that is answer enough by itself.
Now, you are likely to say, "I don't believe that!" and that's fine.
I'm not asking you to believe. I only want you to understand my
perspective as I understand yours.
Sol
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Note 46.46 Deep Thoughts....By Us 46 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 13 lines 21-SEP-1993 15:03
-< Wow, we're rollin' now! Post YOUR definitions, folks! >-
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Pookie,
it is quite possible that this man would go home and never give it
a second thought. But that is why it is -Potential- good.
And I never said such an action was justifiable. I'd be right up
there with you protesting it. And if he was my friend, you can be darn
sure he'd be getting the old Cold Shoulder from me for it.
Just because something is wrong (even desperately wrong) doesn't
make it Evil.
Sol
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Note 46.47 Deep Thoughts....By Us 47 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 2 lines 21-SEP-1993 15:38
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I totally don't understand how that is potentially good.
Pook
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Note 46.48 Deep Thoughts....By Us 48 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "The Real Me" 40 lines 21-SEP-1993 16:37
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I thought now would be a good time to get into this discussion. This
is Sceadeau. I now feel comfortable in telling you the story behind
the name.
Originally, it was Shadow Rogue. Stolen straight from Bard's Tale
III. In eigth grade, I snapped. I was sick of being passive and nice
and everyone's little snot rag. I was sick of being picked on and
walked over. I created Shadow. My retreat. My savior. My protector.
He was purely immoral, but he was made to protect me and anyone who was
nice to me from attack. In that way he was Good. His amoral attitude
was Evil. I look back now and can clearly state that he was EVIL. I
have posted poetry here and in Poetry that if you have read, go back
and re-read, you will see most of it is my struggle against this entity
called Shadow.
It began one day while being picked on, I decided I had had enough
and I hospitalized three of my antagonizers. They, to me, were the
Evil Ones, and they had to be destroyed. I called him unto me and he
set forth an amazing attack that gained me respect. It also showed me
that I had a lot more in me than I knew. I was strong. I was a good
fighter. I was not a geek. I needed these reinforcements.
Unfortunately, that gave me too much power. A lot more power than
a 12 year old kid could handle. I started turning Evil. Started
getting all those who got me. The weak hailed me as their protector.
The school pyschiatrist was scared of me. I became Shadow publically.
Soon, I was able to tone it down to where I would help anyone who
needed help, but I scared parents incredibly.
Eventually, Shadow was banished. But then the taunts started.
Anytime I walked into a room, I would here the whisper "shadow". It
made me mad. Not long after, Shadow came to me again. I had a fight
to control my body. I won. He lost.
I then gave myself the nickname "Shadow" to stop letting the taunts
bother me. Anytim anyone whispered I said, "Hey, whats up". I moved
away, leaving that life behind. I started over, but with the name
Sceadeau to always remind myself as to what I could have become.
I am basically Good, and have a big heart but I feel that we all
need a _little_ bit of evil in us to protect us from that which is
Evil.
Marc S. Acampora
a.k.a Sceadeau
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Note 46.49 Deep Thoughts....By Us 49 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 "It'd be cool to be an Ewok..." 8 lines 21-SEP-1993 16:38
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If a chemist took a day off, 2000 people die on this day off, and he
finds the cure for the disease those people died of the next day; did
he do evil by taking the day off? no. Many people's lives will still
be saved; it was only that those 2000, like the previous 2000, died
before the cure was found; and possibly, if he hadn't taken the day
off, it may have taken even longer.
~
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Note 46.50 Deep Thoughts....By Us 50 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 9 lines 21-SEP-1993 16:51
-< Determinism isn't fate... >-
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For Sol:
Well, you want people to understand your perspective, and I think that
I do, and that's ok. Now, here's my perspective. I believe that
everything that happens is determined. No, not fate. There is a
difference. Under determinism, we the people have no free will. In
other words, the decisions that you make were determined by other
factors that already have happened. Do you understand or did I lose
someone again?
The Anti-Christ
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Note 46.51 Deep Thoughts....By Us 51 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 8 lines 21-SEP-1993 17:04
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A little foggy, Anti-Christ, but I am intrigued... please clarify.
Is Determinism like Predestination (which I believe) or is it more
like, you would not have been in a position to make the choices you do
if not for prior factors?
Sol
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Note 46.52 Deep Thoughts....By Us 52 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 7 lines 21-SEP-1993 18:01
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RE:49
That has no bearing what so ever on what has been said so far. Finding
the answer for something is totally independent of evil/good unless
your methods are debatable.
Tas
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Note 46.53 Deep Thoughts....By Us 53 of 256
LEVVAX::JXM6259 "May we all live in peas" 11 lines 21-SEP-1993 19:57
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Based on many of the previous posts, I have a small suggestion as
to a clearer definition of good and evil. I see Evil as the
fulfillment of ones wants/needs over those of others, while Good, being
diametrically opposed, is that which drives those to sacrfice of
themselves that others may benefit. Martyrism. It's still a matter of
opinion, since even the most "evil" of men could be considered a martyr
to certain people, but it DOES add another layer of clarity to the
debate here, I do believe.
fnord
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Note 46.54 Deep Thoughts....By Us 54 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Maybe I should grow some hair..." 10 lines 21-SEP-1993 20:07
-< How about a little SFII, Fnord >-
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I do not see Evil as the opposite of Good. I see them as both being
very strong preferences. The opposite of Good and Evil is neutral.
That is their bane. Good and Evil can continue to clash, while
neutral, or Grey, will choose between those two and always come out on
top. They are the ones who tip the balance, for I feel they have no
moral feelings, just sight to see the bandwagon
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.55 Deep Thoughts....By Us 55 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 8 lines 21-SEP-1993 20:15
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RE .53:
*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP*
That's one of the few that comes close to what I think it is; but I
can't express it in words.
~
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Note 46.56 Deep Thoughts....By Us 56 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 25 lines 21-SEP-1993 20:31
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Interesting perspective, fnord! I commend you for a nice, precise
definition!
I like those, personally.
Sceadeau, how about this for your perspective?
N
!
!
!
O
/ \
/ \
/ \
G E
I love diagrams, don't you? Of course, assuming that I am following
you, what does the O mean?
Sol
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Note 46.57 Deep Thoughts....By Us 57 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 81 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:05
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> Potentially Good is not the same as good.
> Something can be Potentially Good and yet still wrong.
> The Potentially Good is accomplishing a benefit while using
> un-necessary violence/invoking un-necessary harm in the process.
>
> Potentially Good means it is not totally Evil, and therefore, has the
> Potential to move towards the good. That is what I am saying.
>
> If you find this hard to comprehend, please substitute your word,
> "bad," in its place, if that makes it clearer for you. I simply prefer
> to concentrate on the fact that there is something positive in
> everything, thus the term Potential Good.
Ok. Lets talk about potentially evil. Potentially evil means that it
isn't completely evil, it actually has some benefit. But it has some
possibility of becoming evil absolute. Now I understand that you prefer the
glass is half full part of life, but life, in my view, must be taken from both
points of veiw. You don't stand by one, you attck it from both. Thats why I
keep saying I can't beleive as you do. Its impossible for me to see things
from that one veiw. The other veiw offers so much insight. And why? Because
that potential for evil is present in everyone just like the potential for
good.
> Let us say that the slimeball from Pookie's note took the antelope...
> flew off with it, and had a banquet. Let us say that this guy has lead
> his whole life this way... and this was his most despicable act yet.
>
> The starving tribe starves. As a result, something twangs in the
> money-grubber, and he decides that he IS a slimeball. He goes to
> extensive counselling, and years later, changes to a humanitarian in an
> effort to make up for his Crime. Millions of people benefit, either
> directly or indirectly. The tribe is still dead, but the day that
> happened, the seed was planted for something better to come.
>
> Or perhaps hundreds of people were outraged by this cold-blooded act,
> it got lots of publicity, and as a result, food was sent to the tribe,
> saving them all.
>
> Yes, wildly hypothetical, but so is some guy with a plane full of food
> stealing an antelope.
What a horrible cost for one man to learn the error of his ways. I
would have strung the SOB up on a tree by piano wire and let him starve to
death.
> The point is this... all actions carry a Potential for Good... even if
> the action itself was not good. I do not pretend that such an action
> isn't WRONG, it just isn't EVIL. The two aren't the same to me.
All actions also carry the potential for evil. But we've been over
this before.
> People are basically good... all that is not good moves towards it.
I don't think so, but this has also been dealt with.
> Let me pose you this question to re-enforce my point...
>
> By YOUR definition, how many Evil people have you met in your lifetime?
> How many Good?
Met? Well, I can think of examples of both. few are even close to one
extreme or the other, but I can say he is majorly good, or majorly bad. Just
because I say majorly doesn't mean I stick to that judgment forever. It
constsnly gets reworked as they do new things over time. People are not
absolutes.
> I am willing to bet the Good far outweighs the Evil.
>
> Sol
Society forces most of that on people, and I think deep down if all
were to run free, they would be even numbers.
Sol, I understand your different view point, well I see at least, but I
am trying to understand it, and failing miserably. Please don't take any of my
posts as attacks on yer ways. I respect you and your beliefs and do not mean
to demean them. But its sometimes hard to separate your thoughts about
someone's beliefs and that person. I'm just curious.
Tas
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Note 46.58 Deep Thoughts....By Us 58 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 64 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:05
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> I do not ask you to agree, Tas. Only to understand that there is
> another perspective.
Ya, I know. Its just my way of pounding things out in my head. I
don't mean to say you are wrong in your views because they are different. I'm
just saying I think they are wrong. There is a difference, and I think you
know that Sol.
> As for ignorance, one need not consider something Evil in order to see
> that it poses a threat to one's person... one can look at a snake,
> consider it as not evil, and still avoid its venomous bite.
No, but one must realise it for what it is. Its is part of a snake's
nature (some anyways) to be poisonous. You accept that. But by always living
by the idea that all is at least partially good, it seems to me that you choose
to ignore the bad stuff. If you don't believe it exists, and you just assign
it to human frailty, then I think you miss a part of human nature.
> One can see a human being trying to take advantage of him, consider
> that he simply has more to learn, and yet not fall victem to his
> attempts.
Hmmm. An intersting point. But what do you do about it? Try to talk
to him or just let it lie? If you talk to him and he tells you to go screw
because he doesn't care about you and moves on to a perhaps easier target, do
you let that slide and say 'hey, they both need to learn. let them.' Or do
you stop the perp so he doesn't mess anyone else up?
> Hanging Evil and Bad around your neck is like a weight. And it is an
> un-necessary one. At least in my book.
I remind you that good is equally as heavy as evil. Its not something
that keeps me up nights, but I recognize it.
> I have no need to feel anger towards those people... the concept of
> Evil sets up a me-vs-them attitude. I don't care for that. I would
> prefer to view the big picture, that everything is connected, and that
> "evil" comes for a reason. To me, labeling things or people Evil gets
> away from the point, because it is like we are trying to separate them
> from us.
Ahh no. Not necessarily. But in most cases yes.
> I have never considered anyone evil once I really understood them. One
> needs not agree to understand. Sometimes, ignoring the good blinds
> you, by closing you to their perspective. If you can write them off as
> Evil, there is no further need to guess their motivations and feelings,
> for by labelling them Evil, that is answer enough by itself.
Yes, you are using my argument on ignoring evil back on me, but I
recognize both. I prefer both, I am a creature of both. Yes, one
occasdionally 'blinds' me, but usually I switch perspectives to geta better
picture. And you need not write them off, I'm just saying you must recognize
it.
> Now, you are likely to say, "I don't believe that!" and that's fine.
> I'm not asking you to believe. I only want you to understand my
> perspective as I understand yours.
I'm trying to undertand. But I wonder, do you truly understand mine?
> Sol
Tas
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Note 46.59 Deep Thoughts....By Us 59 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 20 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Based on many of the previous posts, I have a small suggestion as
> to a clearer definition of good and evil. I see Evil as the
> fulfillment of ones wants/needs over those of others, while Good, being
> diametrically opposed, is that which drives those to sacrfice of
> themselves that others may benefit. Martyrism. It's still a matter of
> opinion, since even the most "evil" of men could be considered a martyr
> to certain people, but it DOES add another layer of clarity to the
> debate here, I do believe.
>
>
> fnord
Hmmm, but I think evil also has a need to be dominant and destructive.
If it was merely a pursuit of one's needs, it could be accomplished in what
many people would call good ways. For instance, a man feeding a homeless
beggar for the sole reason of satifying some guilt trip would be evil by your
standards.
Tas
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Note 46.60 Deep Thoughts....By Us 60 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 28 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:11
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>
> I do not see Evil as the opposite of Good. I see them as both being
> very strong preferences. The opposite of Good and Evil is neutral.
> That is their bane. Good and Evil can continue to clash, while
> neutral, or Grey, will choose between those two and always come out on
> top. They are the ones who tip the balance, for I feel they have no
> moral feelings, just sight to see the bandwagon
>
> -- Sceadeau
An intersting thought, how do you define the three (good, evil,
nuetral)? I'm trying to figure out how nuetral could be the ooposite of good
and evil, because that would place them together.
Or is it some sort of triangle like so.....
Nuetral
Good Evil
?
Tas
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Note 46.61 Deep Thoughts....By Us 61 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9353 "Until I Fall Away,..." 22 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:17
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I'm too pissed to read all those damn notes in this topic, but
I'll say something about good and evil and the existance of god.
It is all subjective. One person looks at it one way. Another
person looks at it another way. I think that humans are born with
instinct. All animals are born with instinct. This instinct includes
the right of survival. All humans will fight to live. To take a life
without reason to kill it (meaning it will not effect you living. Like
you need canabalism to live.) is wrong.
I feel humans are born neutral. Experience and their mental
stability decide wheather or not that person becomes good or evil. It
also depends on that persons morals. I have few morals. Therefore, many
things I do I feel are right. That has to do with the way I was rased.
Also, there is no god, but I will not get into that now.
Sherm
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Note 46.62 Deep Thoughts....By Us 62 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Maybe I should grow some hair..." 25 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:23
-< Thinking this one out..... >-
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I see Love and Hate and Apathy in the same light, if that helps.
It is hard to define the three but I'll try
Good : Strong (Morals, Personal Code)
Evil : Strong (Morals, Personal Code)
Neutral : No morals, no personal code, lives for the win, not the fight
Ya see, Neutral, to me, is an evil thing. Evil and Good are
predictable, Grey is not. Grey is the one that must be watched. The
Evil and Good are not definate terms, just perspectives. Both Good and
Evil came from Grey at one point, but solidified their thinking and
chose a side.
Think of it as colors
Black : Evil or Black : Wrong
White : Good White : Right
Grey : Neutral Neutral : I don't care
Those are my definitions, maybe I will clarify in the future.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.63 Deep Thoughts....By Us 63 of 256
LEVVAX::JXM6259 "But I won't do that." 30 lines 21-SEP-1993 21:23
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>
> Hmmm, but I think evil also has a need to be dominant and destructive.
>If it was merely a pursuit of one's needs, it could be accomplished in what
>many people would call good ways. For instance, a man feeding a homeless
>beggar for the sole reason of satifying some guilt trip would be evil by your
>standards.
>
> Tas
>
Yes, but note that I said "ahead of the needs of others." He is still
satisfying the needs of the beggar, which are by far greater than his.
(Survival vs. Feeling guilty)
Just for clarity let me reword my partial definition of Evil:
Gratification of ones own needs/wants, in the easiest possible manner,
but there are also levels of evil. Anyone who has played AD&D will be
familiar with the concept of alignments. Lawful Evil: Those who are
selfish in nature, but do hold SOME things sacred, and have SOME
honor...they just think of themselves first in many cases. Chaotic
Evil: Probablt the worst form of evil...senseless acts of violence and
destruction, just for the sake of satisfying one's sick desires. Just
for fun.
I lost my train of thought on my first comment, but you get the
idea...
fnord
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Note 46.64 Deep Thoughts....By Us 64 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 21 lines 21-SEP-1993 22:07
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The concept of good and evil should have died with the
middle ages. To be "good" is to deny yourself the pleasures of life,
by limiting yourself to acts that you feel will either help someone or
harm no one. To be "evil" is to allow yourself all the little
titillations life has to offer. As the ancient greek said, "It is the
experience itself, not its fruit which we crave." Therefore, the only
acts which you should avoid are those which may laterlimit your
enjoyment of pleasure.
What that last statement means is while certain experiences may be
exceptionally pleasureable, such as shooting 250 mg of heroin or
cheating on your wife of twenty years, the price you have to pay for them
in lost pleasures later in life makes them not worth doing.
Note the converse of this statement (if the pleasures are great
enough, you'll pay the price) is also true.
In conclusion, "evil" and "good" are meaningless. The only thing
that really exists is, to quote Perry Farrell "pleasure and pain."
Randomly yours,
Ed
PS I'm new. See my intro.
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Note 46.65 Deep Thoughts....By Us 65 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 57 lines 21-SEP-1993 22:16
-< A bit more... >-
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(from Tas) "If you don't believe it (evil) exists, and you just
assign it to human frailty, then I think you miss out on a part of
human nature."
Interesting... you have hit on something very basic for me, Tas!
That is exactly what I believe... wrongdoings are the result of a
frailty, an inability to accomplish a task without causing un-needed
harm. To me, this lacking -is- a weakness, and because people attempt
to overcome their weaknesses, that's why we move toward the Good.
Accomplish a given task more efficiently, as you will.
You say I miss out on a part of human nature if I believe this...
interesting.I think I can see what you are trying to say, but I am not
sure. You say (I think, help me) that if I do not see the Evil in
people (or bad, by my definition), that I will not be able to
anticipate their actions or motives, and therefore not get a full sense
of what they are "really" like. I am trying...
You posed some questions on the "bully" who was taking advantage of
me a few notes back... here's the hypothetical answers... may they
help!
Do I talk to him?
If I believe it would be productive, yes. I recognize,
however, that he may not be INTERESTED in talking, and so, I would
leave it be in the understanding that my efforts could accomplish no
good.
Do I let it lie?
If I believe this is the best action (ie, least likely to
cause negative reprocussions), then yeah, I'd back off. My pride is
irrelevant... what is important is that a peace can be achieved (uneasy
or otherwise... that's not important. If he wants to sulk, that's his
problem. Let him).
And if he gives you no more trouble, and moves onto an easier
target?
At this point, he is causing un-necessary harm again. That
is not acceptable. If the situation looks as if it would blow over on
it's own, fine. Let it. If it looks like it won't, and if I determine
that my intervention -could- alleviate the situation, yes, I would
intercede. By my definition, the Aggressive action of interceding is
not evil, for it is the most efficient way to accomplish peace, ie, the
benefit.
Whew... that's about the size of it.
You asked if I truly understood your view... hmmm. That made me
think. I shall consider it... and maybe come up with some more good
questions for you.
Oh, and yeah, I know ya won't really give me a hard time,
here... but you know how these Philosophy Debates can get!
Sol
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Note 46.66 Deep Thoughts....By Us 66 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 24 lines 22-SEP-1993 10:10
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Ok, now I think I'm getting it.
Yer a patient parent type. What I mean is that when a person less
advanced then you (he is not necessarily inferior, just not as caught
up) screws up, you would forgive him the trepasses and hopes he learns
from it. If you have a so called 'problem child' you would watch him,
do what is necessary to protect other innocents of you can, but would
still treat him as if he was a good person, capable of getting
'better'. And since you attribute these 'bad' portions of acts to
frailty, you cannot say that evil in its absolutism exists. I think I
understand, better at least.
But here's where I challenge you again. And, this cannot really be
proven either way, its just my feeling on the matter. Perhaps the
frailty is caused by what we call evil. A corruption of the mind
and/or soul that is inherently partially there when we come into
existence. In essence, it doesn't really matter Sol, cause we are
saying the same thing about the existence of good/evil, but using
different terms.
Where we truly differ is how each of us deals with that
evil/frailty.
Tas
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Note 46.67 Deep Thoughts....By Us 67 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 8 lines 22-SEP-1993 10:19
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RE:63
Ok. If you looked at the act as a whole, the beggar the street,
the whole smeil, the yes, I would agree, in total it was a good act.
But, the man must still be called an evil man, for he did it solely for
his purposes.
Tas
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Note 46.68 Deep Thoughts....By Us 68 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 13 lines 22-SEP-1993 10:22
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RE: .64
So you base everything on whether or not it will get YOU the most
pleasure, either right now or later on in life. Very dangerous
philosophy too me, since if everyone had that, we could all be in real
trouble. Your death might be someone's elses pleasure. Genocide might
be someone's pleasure. Total world destruction might be someone's
pleasure. And if you say that thos people will never be in power...
Hitler, Mussolini, the Mafia, Gestapo, Alexander the Great, Nero,
etc etc etc. History is riddled with people who did their pleasure.
Tas
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Note 46.69 Deep Thoughts....By Us 69 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "I want my Suga-Tush" 13 lines 22-SEP-1993 11:10
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Tas, I hear what you're sayin' but to their followers, these were good
men righting the world from Evil. That follows what I am saying about
Good and Evil can never be defined. They are not absolutes. They
change with every victory. Hitler was defeated, he was Evil. What if
he won? Then would all Jew's be Evil. Would everyone he stomped on be
Evil?
The answer to that is yes. Evil is just the side opposed to you,
that is why colors represent it better. No right, No wrong, just a
spectrum of opinions and values.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.70 Deep Thoughts....By Us 70 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 9 lines 22-SEP-1993 11:26
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Yes, Tas... you have it now. Rather accurately, too, I would
think. And that is cool, because with your last statement, we have
distilled the whole thing down to a matter of perspective after all...
And I respect your perspective.
Wow, we're good.
Sol
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Note 46.71 Deep Thoughts....By Us 71 of 256
LEVVAX::BRC8940 "Escape from the water torture cell" 45 lines 22-SEP-1993 11:26
-< Sometimes you gotta be bad just to know your alive >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOL,
I believe that hummankind is equaly capable of both negative and postive
emotions.
To say that humans should strive for perfection is to say that we
should try not to be human. as humans we are not perfect, we have
emotions, anger, rage, joy, sadness. They are what makes us human,
and if we ignore any of these emotions to promote a higher goal..
a perfection if you wish..we may be loosing our humanity.
Human = imperfect
perfect = machine
we are not machines..
humans are a contemtable savage species yes...but that is what we
are and we should be proud of it..
If god wanted us to be perfect conginial robots...
he would have made us robots..
Emotions good or bad ..they still belong to us ... to let either the
good or bad ones control us all the time is to have a person who
is out of balence..
It is good for us.emotionally speaking..to get pissed off once in a while
to blow off steam..
It is equaly good to be happy and do nice things..
We need both...
too much happieness and joy... we have a barney...
too much anger, and hate... we have Adoff Hitler..
Either one is dangerous to society and not healthy for the
individual..
Houdini
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Note 46.72 Deep Thoughts....By Us 72 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 7 lines 22-SEP-1993 11:30
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Yes, I spose that is a valid way to approach life, but I still
beleive that there are some absolutes. Floating reference points make
for huge philosophical messes.
And I also think it is too easy a solution. :)
Tas
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Note 46.73 Deep Thoughts....By Us 73 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 10 lines 22-SEP-1993 11:34
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RE: Sol
Yer, right, damn we are good. :)
And I have always respected yers, but now I understand it to.
Cool.
So, whats next? :)
Tas
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Note 46.74 Deep Thoughts....By Us 74 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 4 lines 22-SEP-1993 12:41
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Hmmmm... I dunno... now I'm bored.
Sol
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Note 46.75 Deep Thoughts....By Us 75 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "I want my Suga-Tush" 6 lines 22-SEP-1993 12:46
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Hey, Smoking Philospher would have plenty of ideas.
We argue every time he brings something up, though
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.76 Deep Thoughts....By Us 76 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 4 lines 22-SEP-1993 13:27
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I have a deep thought to debat. I'll post it later as I don't have the
time right now. (I'm on lunch).
-Dank
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Note 46.77 Deep Thoughts....By Us 77 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 3 lines 22-SEP-1993 13:34
-< But I'd rather debate it then debat it. :) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
good, lets.
Tas
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Note 46.78 Deep Thoughts....By Us 78 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 13 lines 22-SEP-1993 16:00
-< determinism >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sol,
No, Determinism is not exactly like predestination. Predestination is
more like fate, like no matter what happened before, it was going to
happen. However, determinism is more that anything that has happened
previously is what determines what will happen. Under this theory, you
technically do not make choices, because there is no free will. All
the things that make up what happened in the past (whether it be the
last 2 seconds or 2,000,000 years) will determine what is going to
happen now. And what happens now, will determine what will happen in
the next second. Do you understand now, or have I made things even
foggier?
The Anti-Christ
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Note 46.79 Deep Thoughts....By Us 79 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 14 lines 22-SEP-1993 16:30
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Hmmm... no, not yet, Anti-Christ...
With Predestination, everything is set... no choice, history WILL
unfold in only 1 way. No matter what. We may not know what way that
is, but it will happen.
Determinism sounds the same... no free will... all past factors have
influence on future factors... and (I presume?) therefore, only one
possible history there, too.
Anyone else understand?
Sol
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Note 46.80 Deep Thoughts....By Us 80 of 256
LEVVAX::KAB8121 "WINDOWS TO THE SOUL" 14 lines 22-SEP-1993 16:36
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here's a deep thought:
we humans are the only species on this planet who are the most
intelligent... therefore.. we're the `smarter' species..
ok.. if we're smart.. then how come we all can't care of the planet
and take better care of our environment...? well.. it's true that
we're coming up wtih better ways to preserve the life of/on this
planet, and it would be a long long time and then by the time we all
could figure out everything.. the envrionemnt would probably in the
worse shape if created in the universe.. (and there would probably
be fewer members of every species.. including humans..)
vampiress..
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Note 46.81 Deep Thoughts....By Us 81 of 256
LEVVAX::EMW2148 "BloOdShEd" 8 lines 22-SEP-1993 17:03
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You know, scientists say that we are only using 5% of our brain's
capacity. It is believed that if we used our full capacity, we could
tell the future, do levitation. Im not joking. And once we use our
full power, we can solve the problems of hte world easily. I myself
don't believe in those scientists' belieffs.
BloOdShEd
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Note 46.82 Deep Thoughts....By Us 82 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "Where's the toast?" 42 lines 22-SEP-1993 18:56
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I saw a movie a while ago. I don't remember what it was called,
but the jist of it was that this man had died, and was awaiting
judgement in a pseudo-purgatory. For a few days, he got together with
these "attorneys" and a judge, and they worked out as to whether his
life had shown that he was fit for heaven. (They didn't go to hell if
they were decided against, they went back to Earth and tried again in a
different life.)
Well, the whole point is that the people that worked as the
attorneys and such all use more than the 3-5% of their brain. They
called all the judgee's "little brains". They supposeldy used like 50%
or more of their brain. It was a big thing to tell other people how
much of your brain you used. "My lawyer uses _53%_ of his brain!" It
was pretty cool. I think I saw one of the laywers reading sheets of
paper written in binary.
Point made, though. I've heard the same things about what little
we use our brains. However, I don't know if expanding that could lead
to things like levitation.
One of the brain-related things I like to think about is the idea
that everything you've ever seen is stored in your mind, waiting to be
retrieved. Hence, poor memory is not the problem. Instead it is a
lack of your ability to retrieve data.
Now think about all the information crammed into your head.
Imagine a videotape of your life; everything you've ever seen, heard,
smelled, felt, etc. For me that would be like 110,000 hours worth of
tape. On it all the knowledge I've assimilated over the years. Every
book, the lyrics to every song you've ever heard, absolutely
everything. What you had for breakfast on the 3,567th day of your life
and what kind of shoes you had on. Imagine it!
You would also have the data, in whatever form it might be, of all
the thoughts you've ever had. Stuff you don't really think about. a
list of all the great ideas you've ever had pop into your mind.
Oh, I just thought of something else. This one would be great-
Yoou'd be able to look back at all the dreams and all the nightmares
you've ever had.
Just think of the possibilities!
--Cav
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Note 46.83 Deep Thoughts....By Us 83 of 256
LEVVAX::EMW2148 "BloOdShEd" 6 lines 22-SEP-1993 18:58
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Yeah, I saw that movie. Oh, man. I forgot the title. The end was
when he jumped across a train to be with his love, and they decided to
let him go, right?
BloOdShEd
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Note 46.84 Deep Thoughts....By Us 84 of 256
LEVVAX::PAL8594 "thanks for being you!" 5 lines 22-SEP-1993 19:04
-< :) >-
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yeah... i know that movie.. its uhmmm "Defending your life"
cool movie
Smiley
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Note 46.85 Deep Thoughts....By Us 85 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Foxy...Suga-Tush" 34 lines 22-SEP-1993 19:11
-< One thought Now for the other..... >-
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I have a lot of thoughts on this matter and here the go.
We have been improving our lives through various inventions. We
have developed a lot over the past few centuries. I have a short story
that I wrote on this whole subject if anyone is interested, but here is
the summed up version. It starts like this.
"If we use only ten percent of our brains, who uses the rest?"
What if.....
We are being controlled by what I call XQ's (no reason) and they
play with us like a big chess game. One XQ owns about ten percent of
everything on earth. Ten percent of the people (different races,
different countries) ten percent of the bugs ten percent of everything.
Now, while they are trying to keep us unaware, our minds are
expanding. Over the years, we can wrestle a little bit of our minds
from them. This is what is known as progress. As our minds get
bigger, so does our world. We invent things, we create things, we use
what we have to make a little more.
But that is all about the brain. What about other things.
Did you ever just reach out and squish a bug without even thinking
about it? Just BLAM, and it was dead. Maybe that was an ant that had
taken control of more of its mind then the rest. Maybe it was going to
alert the other ants. BLAM, dead. JFK, BLAM, dead.
But still, only an XQ that controlled both person and ant could do
this. XQ2 could not squish an XQ1 ant.
Did you ever go to kill a bug but then stop, without reason? That
is what I feel is going on. Wars are made by them. Maybe they need,
well I don't know why, but they are there.
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Note 46.86 Deep Thoughts....By Us 86 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Foxy...Suga-Tush" 19 lines 22-SEP-1993 19:16
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Now for opinion two on this topic.
What if the thing in our other 90% is only in each individual. The
only thing that they cannot do is control our movements for extended
periods of time and control our speech.
How would you feel if that was you? How would you feel if all you
could do is think, and look at the moron that shared your body and be
disgusted by the choices that they made.
This I feel is what gives us a survival instinct. The brains feel
the need to keep this body alive in case the mind in front goes away.
Or makes a slip.
That is what I feel makes our hearts beat, our lungs breathe, and
our cells working. They keep us alive.
I have more thoughts on this but I know no one likes reading long
posts.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.87 Deep Thoughts....By Us 87 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 10 lines 22-SEP-1993 19:58
-< fog horn... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll try to clear the fog, but may end up making it worse...
Under determinism there isn't only one way that something can happen...
that is until the events leading up to it have happened.
Under predestination right now something is predestined to happen
tomorrow. However, under determination, things aren't determined until
right before they happen... Understand?
The Anti-Christ
(the king of confusion???)
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Note 46.88 Deep Thoughts....By Us 88 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 11 lines 22-SEP-1993 20:05
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Interesting... Anti-Christ, if in Determinism, things are determined
just before they happen... and those things determined right before
-they- happen... and the things before that determined right before
-they- happen... tracing from tommorrow, back to today, in one tiny
step after another, is it not fair to say that everything that will
happen tommorrow (and onward) has already been determined today?
Keep tryin' ... I'm dense today
Sol
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Note 46.89 Deep Thoughts....By Us 89 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 26 lines 22-SEP-1993 21:22
-< Refutation >-
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RE:86
The theories presented in this posting (I hope the number is right,
it was the one on the XQ's in our head.) are wrong because they deny
the concept of free will, and in doing so, our humanity. If something
external is controlling us, then then the sum of human knowledge is
meaningless, since it isn't really human knowledge, but merely the
facts given to us like crumbs to so many laboratory rats. And if
something is feeding us knowledge, then the whole idea of striving and
the logical quest for knowledge are useless. And if logic is useless,
then all of philosophy falls apart and we are reduced to the
intellectual equivalent of algae.
Therefore, to accept this view is to stop yourself from ever
committing a conscious act, and therefore you could never enter the Lev.
Society. In short, holding this view logically precludes your arguing
for it, since arguements are based on logic (if they are worth
anything) and this veiw precludes logic by its rejection of individual
human thought.
Never believe that you are anything less than the most important
being in the universe.
Randomly yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.90 Deep Thoughts....By Us 90 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 6 lines 23-SEP-1993 00:32
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> Never believe that you are anything less than the most important
>being in the universe.
I consider that a very dangerous and wrong statement.
Tas
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Note 46.91 Deep Thoughts....By Us 91 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "Where's the toast?" 5 lines 23-SEP-1993 11:23
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I'm confused, but I still agree with Tas.
--Cav
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Note 46.92 Deep Thoughts....By Us 92 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Foxy...Suga-Tush" 29 lines 23-SEP-1993 12:45
-< Read this even if it is long >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do control ourselves. I was not saying that we don't. We have been
taking more and more control back. what I'm saying they are are more
along the lines of subconcious behavior controlling--all our concious
thoughts are ours.
I'm just saying somethings we don't have a choice in the matter
with. The Xq's are the ones that give us our likes and dislikes, not
ourselves.
As you and I have argued in the past, others might not know that we
have talked about what makes us like something. Ed has said that it
can all be broken down into little itty-bitty pieces and I said that we
could never know exactly what it is that makes us have preferences.
We made a metaphor, if that is the right word, to a building. To
an RIT building.
We said that if the building is ourselves, then each individual
brick is everything that has ever happened in our lives. He said he
sits down and tries to get to know each individual brick while I'd look
at it as a whole.
I argued that while you think about each brick, more bricks are
being added on, because now you are older, every thought would be a new
brick.
You don't have to understand why you like something, just really
know what your preferences are. I have no need to know why I like a
certain color, I just know I do.
Maybe Xq up there has an exact reason for me liking that color, but
I don't know it, and that is what I'm saying is an Xq.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.93 Deep Thoughts....By Us 93 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 17 lines 23-SEP-1993 15:07
-< Your importance >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Deification of man.
Can you name one thing in the cosmos that is more important than
yourself? You may be able to if you are still tied up in those dark
age concepts of right and wrong. Then you can say,"Oh yes, my wife and
my dog and my kids and the human race and democracy and human
rights....." and continue going on til its evident to all but you that
you have a massive inferiority complex. What makes any of these things
more important than you? The fact that you have assigned them a value
in your mind. Therfore, they derive their worth from how you view
them, not from any intrinsic quality. And if everything in the
universe derives its value from you and your views, doesn't that make
you the most important being in the universe?
Randomly yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.94 Deep Thoughts....By Us 94 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 9 lines 23-SEP-1993 15:11
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Interesting... so without YOU to perceive it, the rest of the Universe
doesn't matter, because from YOUR point of view, there's nothing there?
Because if you don't exist it doesn't matter?
If a tree falls in the middle of the forest, and there is no one
there to hear it... hmmm.
Sol
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Note 46.95 Deep Thoughts....By Us 95 of 256
LEVVAX::TLR8799 "Whaddya mean, Doc? I'm not insane?" 8 lines 23-SEP-1993 15:42
-< Enough of Good vs Evil (or Bad) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I have two questions for you deep thinkers to debate about.
What is life?
Are we the only "intelligent" species in the entire galaxies and
universes? Any possiblity that there is another "intelligent" species?
The Joker
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Note 46.96 Deep Thoughts....By Us 96 of 256
LEVVAX::KAB8121 "WINDOWS TO THE SOUL" 14 lines 23-SEP-1993 16:14
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hmm.. now that you think about it.. we humans made our lives easier
by improving our knowledge over time.. (technology.. nutrition..
etc..) but think about those who didn't need their brains too much
to survive.. the whales.. the tigers.. all tthe other species..
they jsut live for themselves, (hunt.. feed their young..etc..) and
they didn't harm their environemt at all..
therefore, if we stayed the way we were beofre we thought of all
this... (indians would make a perfect example..) we'd be in the same
boat as the other species.. yet the majority of us treat them as
"sometheing cute.. " or.. whatever.. and not well respected..
vampiress..
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Note 46.97 Deep Thoughts....By Us 97 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Suga-Tush, where are you?" 5 lines 23-SEP-1993 17:12
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To whom was the last reply directed to, because it confused me
somewhat?
-- Sceadeai
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Note 46.98 Deep Thoughts....By Us 98 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 13 lines 23-SEP-1993 17:45
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Yes, It would be really great to live without technology. Everyday
communing with nature, living as any other beast in the forest. Yes
sir, that would be great. Dying at age 32 from old age. Dying from a
cut finger thanks to gangrene and other infections. Infant mortality
rates around 50%. Sign me up for that! And don't forget those other
fun things like starvation, and cripplings for life by a by a broken
bone. Wow! Boy, you have no idea how much I love that.
Seriously, technology is rough and kind of annoying alot of the
time. But it beats the alternative by a mile.
Randomly yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.99 Deep Thoughts....By Us 99 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 11 lines 23-SEP-1993 18:05
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Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree...
For all it's drawbacks, technology has produced much good... it's just
like Mickey Mouse in Sorcerer's Apprentice... we just aren't using our
power wisely yet. Technology is, largely, a new toy for us...
Sol
PS - I don't count castles and shovels as technology... technically
speaking, it is, but you know what I mean, I think
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Note 46.100 Deep Thoughts....By Us 100 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 26 lines 23-SEP-1993 18:43
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ok, my comment on "goodness" being seen by putting others before
you...
...what for? basically, because it makes you feel good to do
something good for someone else. it all boils down to
self-gratification. and many see that as evil. which I beleive is
totally, TOTALLY wrong. if it were right, there would be no such thing
as love.
think about it. why do you love someone. "well, I want someone
that I can nurture and help and care for." what for? "well, because
it makes me feel good to do that." self gratification. evil? never
in a million years according to my book.
so, saying that evil is doing something because it pleases you is
not enough. to me it is not considering anyone else when you make the
decision to do something that pleases you. actually that isn't far
enough either. not considering anyone else before doing something that
pleases you or doing something that pleases you despite the fact that
you know it will hurt someone else. if I didn't add the second part,
then it wouldn't be evil to do it according to my first definition.
I am an analytical thinker. I tend to look for "the formula" of
good or "the formula" of evil or "the formula" for love...I know it
isn't possible. humans do not follow formulas...we are unpredictable,
even to ourselves sometimes. so, basically, I think that the lines
between doing something that is more good/more evil are decisions we
have to make for ourselves.
Pook
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Note 46.101 Deep Thoughts....By Us 101 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 9 lines 24-SEP-1993 09:39
-< Human equation, Mister Data? Let's see what ya got so far >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There -is- an equation... if we had a big enough computer, and
plugged in all the variables as they were at the start of Creation, we
would not only get a perfect definition of humanity, but an exact
simulation of time, the planets, history, everything.
Of course, being PART of the equation ourselves, it is debatable
whether we can ever find it.
Sol
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Note 46.102 Deep Thoughts....By Us 102 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 4 lines 24-SEP-1993 11:08
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I am sorry, I cannot believe that any formula would be able to
encorporate the workings of the human mind. it doesn't follow a
formula...nor does love.
Pook
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Note 46.103 Deep Thoughts....By Us 103 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 8 lines 24-SEP-1993 11:11
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That's what you think, Pook. But when ya get right down to it, for all
our emotion and love and pain and seeming randomness, our neurons are
just a bunch of ON-OFF switches.
All emotion, ultimately, is based on what is good for us and what
harms us. Or at least our perceptions of that.
Sol
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Note 46.104 Deep Thoughts....By Us 104 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 5 lines 24-SEP-1993 11:20
-< world according to Sol >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's right, folks... all people are basically good, but we
are really just a series of ON-OFF switches. Ha ha! Go chomp on that!
Sol
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Note 46.105 Deep Thoughts....By Us 105 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 11 lines 24-SEP-1993 11:43
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I totally don't believe that our emotions are merely chemical
reactions. granted we are influenced by things and that does affect
our future decisions, but there is nothing saying we will always react
the same way given the same situation. I mean, sometimes we don't
learn from our mistakes like we should. we know what will happen, yet
we do it anyway. why? because we are unpredictable.
why do some women stay with men that beat them and abuse them?
because...well, who the hell knows? it isn't logical to do that, yet
it happens. we cannot determine why we do such things, especially in
the face of love.
Pook
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Note 46.106 Deep Thoughts....By Us 106 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 17 lines 24-SEP-1993 12:05
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I agree with the Pookster. We are more than on-off switches, if we
weren't everything would be perfect and people would never make the
same mistake twice.
Now, you may be saying that isn't true. That people could just be
a little faulty. Well, try any experiment in the world with faulty
data and try to fit an equation to it. Even if you manage, it will
mean nothing more than garbage.
And back to our Good/Evil discussion (let the fun begin again) by
saying there is an absolute right, you call it an equation Sol, there
must be an absolute wrong. And, as you posted, if you think people are
nothing more than than off-on switches, then how can they be anything
but nuetral. Formulas don't leave room for good and bad. Only what
is.
Tas
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Note 46.107 Deep Thoughts....By Us 107 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 18 lines 24-SEP-1993 12:40
-< Yeah, let's do somemore perception-flipping. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Such is the miracle of life, no? We can't explain our emotions,
because, quite frankly, we have no idea WHAT's going on in our minds at
the base level.
And yeah, Tas, this would -seem- to reduce us to machines, wouldn't it?
Well, yeah, we are. You may counter, "Impossible! We have -feelings-,
damn it!" And I say, "yes, we do."
So if we're machines, what use is being Good? What's the point? Why
does it matter?
It matters because it matters to us. And if that's just a complex
ON-OFF reaction, oh well.
Ahhh, what wonderful paradox, eh?
Sol :)
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Note 46.108 Deep Thoughts....By Us 108 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Not Guilty" 12 lines 24-SEP-1993 12:53
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Hmmm...that may be true, chemically. Just machines, eh? Well, if
you want to believe that I'm cool. Personally though, I believe in a
devine spark, a spirit, whatever you want to call it. These on/off
switches are just a way of housing that spirit. To me it's not even
really debatable, it's not a mystery to be solved. This physical world
is the only place the two meet. As for the good evil thing, who knows?
Maybe Ivan the Terrible just had a chemical imbalance, maybe a few
faulty switches. A few Catholics and an occasional Mormon for fiber,
who knows? Mighta been the next Beethoven.
Personally, I don't see it, I don't get it. I just live it.
-jd
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Note 46.109 Deep Thoughts....By Us 109 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "ByMyselfButNotAlone/IAskNoOne" 7 lines 24-SEP-1993 12:59
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I agree with jd. The human body may be little more than a chemical
reaction, but I believe there is mroe and that accounts for the
differnces and feelings. Of course, it is equally possible that we are
all just malfunctioning machines, but I don't like that idea very much.
:)
Tas
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Note 46.110 Deep Thoughts....By Us 110 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 43 lines 24-SEP-1993 19:35
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Okay,.... Go get a shot, 30cc of Testosterone, and we'll watch your
reactions... MY guess is you'd fall head-over-heels over a Minnie-Mouse
blimp.
Sol is right; We are just a big computer with a lot of complex
functions running at the same time... You might say we're multitasking.
I'll list a few...
1) breathing
2) Heart Beat
3) digestion
4) Hearing
5) muscle movement
6) thinking
7) constant examination of our balance
8) looking, whether we're seeing or not
* Our eyes move (I read this somewhere) around 10,000,000 times a
second; even when we're sleeping.
9) examination of our environment
10) On a celular level;
reproduction
Germ fighting
creating of white/red blood cells, platlets
11) Waste products sorted out of our blood
.
.
.
shall I go on? These are all:
chemical reactions
necessary
things we can't control ourselves...
(As for breathing, blinking, ... Try to stop breathing for a couple
minutes; when you pass out, your brain (the automatic part) will take
over and start on it's own, keeping you alive.; for blinking, when your
eye dries out, you'll start blinking again, whether you like to or
not.)
That's what I see... We are computers with chemical reactions and past
experience intimidating everything we do, say, think, etc...
~
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Note 46.111 Deep Thoughts....By Us 111 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 13 lines 25-SEP-1993 11:20
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so we can't control our thinking? umm, I don't think that is
accurate. when I go to botany class, I think about botany...when I go
to ecology class, I think about ecology. you can indeed change what
you think about. we have absolute control over our body. did you
realize that there are people who can consciously slow their heartbeat
down so that it is almost undetectable. it is like a self induced
unconsciousness. odd. my point is that the human brain has more
capabilities than we can even fathom, and I don't think it can possibly
be reduced to an equation. I think if you beleive that we have a
spirit and that it will live once our body ceases to do so, you really
can't argue that. but, if you think you have a good arguement, I would
like to hear it.
Pook
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Note 46.112 Deep Thoughts....By Us 112 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 8 lines 25-SEP-1993 11:34
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I agree. I mean, if all we were, was a bunch of complex reactions,
layer after layer...how do you explain a conciousness over all of this
that isn't overwhelmed by all the details? The mind is separated from
all these bodily functions unless it doesn't WANT to be (ie. Pain or
Pleasure). We are totally concious and capable of controlling our
thoughts and actions. We rule our body, or bodies to NOT rule us....
-Dank
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Note 46.113 Deep Thoughts....By Us 113 of 256
LEVVAX::JED5264 "Q-Tips are better than sex" 19 lines 25-SEP-1993 13:10
-< hope I confused you all.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
can I interrupt this? well, too bad, I'm gonna do it anyway.
did you ever try to perceive "nothing".. I mean, if the earth wasn't
there, there would be space, but if NOTHING was there, not even space,
and no one around to perceive it, what would be there? What is
'nothing'??? what is the absence of blank space, not even air, no
color, not even clear. Every time I try to see this (and I know it's
impossible because you can't SEE 'nothing') I keep taking things away,
and my mind resists it and keeps adding another layer behind what I've
taken away. For instance, I forget about the Earth, and I have space.
Then I take space away, and I wind up with white. I can't take the
white away. Even when I do, I still see space again, or stars. The
image keeps getting smaller and smaller and it gets more and more
frustrating. And how do I eliminate the air space? What is
"nothing"???
J
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Note 46.114 Deep Thoughts....By Us 114 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 4 lines 25-SEP-1993 13:21
-< Neat question... >-
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Beyond a moral mind's comprehension, I think. Another limitation of
the human (mortal) consciousness....
-Dank
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Note 46.115 Deep Thoughts....By Us 115 of 256
LEVVAX::AMA4524 "Angel of Music" 16 lines 26-SEP-1993 19:22
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i once read somewhere that the very foundation of human existence
basically could be summed up in one question... one word... "why?"
it is at the very root of human nature to understand something, to ask
questions and develop more questions when the old ones have been
answered... that if we achieved surpreme knowledge and knew the
answer to every single question... there would be no point in going on,
no point in living... and our existence would collapse upon
ourselves... this desire bordering on subconscious obsession is unique
to our species... animals throughout the kingdom don't expend time,
energy, and thought on "why?" animals just 'do.'
kindof and interesting notion, not to say that i believe in it 100%,
but i found it intriguing to say the least.
Guardian Angel
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Note 46.116 Deep Thoughts....By Us 116 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 13 lines 26-SEP-1993 21:08
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The whole concept of why is like an infinite road away from truth.
You say "Why is this like this?" and you recieve an answer. So you say
"Well, why is that like that?" And with each question you get further
and further from your original point of inquiry.
And this bothers me to no end. After all, if a logical questioning
can not lead you to wisdom, then that refutes the idea of a philosophy
based on the rational, and reduces everything since Plato to a mere
quibbling over semantics.
If some one can explain this to me, I would be really pleased.
Randomly Yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.117 Deep Thoughts....By Us 117 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "We're off to NeverNeverLand" 14 lines 27-SEP-1993 11:02
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RE: NB
I agree. But why ( :) ) do we so fervently seek the answers that
will ruin our lives? I happen to think its because, deep down, people
want a mental reality that is as solid and real as the physical world,
so they constantly ask and seek in hopes of finding an idea so solid it
can't be compromised and must be accepted. We all do that, we all need
something to believe in. In the mean time, since no answers are
forthcoming, a lot of people put their trust in a god, something that
can be concrete in their head. "He's god, he must know, even if I
don't." Of course that brings me into a whole new area, religion.
Anyone wanna argue that?
Tas
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Note 46.118 Deep Thoughts....By Us 118 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 10 lines 27-SEP-1993 11:33
-< determinism... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sol,
Not quite... Because you need the things to happen today to happen
before the things can happen tomorrow. I guess you could try to say
that everything has been determined today, but it wouldn't help any...
See, you can you determinism to find out patterns of events and such,
and to determine what will probably happen, if you knew everything that
had happened.... (I think that I am beginning to confuse myself....)
Anyways, you need the things to happen today, so that the things
tomorrow can be determined......
the Anti-Christ
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Note 46.119 Deep Thoughts....By Us 119 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 17 lines 27-SEP-1993 11:39
-< determinism and logic >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the Smoking Philosopher RE:89
I will try to find the logic for it... See, this theory is not
something invented by me... I found it through my Philosophy class at
Syracuse University... And strange enough, you say that it has no
basis in logic, well all that determinism follows is logic. In fact
the scary thing is that unlike most philosophical arguments, you can
find an error in the logical statements that make it up, and discern
what has been said. However for determinism, the arguement is 100%
logically valid, and no one since the beginning of time has been able
to break the logical statements presented... I too wished that we had
free-will, but we don't...
And for the argument of evil acts... you would still be able to
punish someone for doing something not considered the norm, because the
punishment process, say for instance prison, would help to determine
what the person does in the future.
I really have to bring in the logic for this...
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Note 46.120 Deep Thoughts....By Us 120 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 4 lines 27-SEP-1993 12:05
-< I like this topic... >-
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Sure, Tas. I'll argue it. :)
Present your viewpoint......
-Dank
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Note 46.121 Deep Thoughts....By Us 121 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 16 lines 27-SEP-1993 15:12
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Re: 119
I want to make sure that I completely understand what you mean by
determinism before I attempt to disagree with you. Remember, I'm new
to this, so maybe I missed a peice of background information that is
really important.
Determinism is the belief that everything in life is predestined,
in the same sense that the things that happen according to fate are
predestined. And this belief includes the concept that what will
happen can be determined by looking at the past and at the pattern of
events that have occurred. This veiw precludes the idea of free will
since your trapped inside a program pre designed for you.
Randomly Yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.122 Deep Thoughts....By Us 122 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 7 lines 27-SEP-1993 19:35
-< once again?... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: 121
Not quite... Determinism is not predestination... Things do not
happen according to fate, but by ALL the events that have happened
before. The events that will happen in the next minute were not
determined 2 hours ago, but will be determined by everything that
happens now... Do you understand, or have I lost you all again...
the Anti-Christ
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Note 46.123 Deep Thoughts....By Us 123 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 10 lines 27-SEP-1993 20:15
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So you're saying the past is dependent on the present, and the
past is changed in each passing second by the present?
Other than the present continually adding to the sum of the past, I
don't see how this could work. You need some sort of logical proof for
your argument, preferrably based on observable phenomena. Otherwise,
you have a religion, not a philosophy.
randomly yours,
Ed.
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Note 46.124 Deep Thoughts....By Us 124 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "We're off to NeverNeverLand" 9 lines 28-SEP-1993 10:44
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RE -1
No, the present is constantly dependent on the immediate past. But, as
Sol brought up, then there is only one possibility of existence. The
first moment determined that. Everything that happened after that
first moment was essentially decided, even if no one could tell what it
would be.
Tas
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Note 46.125 Deep Thoughts....By Us 125 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Suga-Tush has spoken" 11 lines 28-SEP-1993 10:56
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That is a good point, but an arguable one. We all make choices, some
choices that have no bases on anything other than sheer abitrary
decisions. These choices, though limited by the immediate past, are
not alone. The immediate past may slim down your choices, but
ultimately it is for us to decide which one of those to chose. And
sometimes it is an enny-meeny-miney-mo thing, so therefore getting rid
of the theory that everything was decided from the first moment.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.126 Deep Thoughts....By Us 126 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "We're off to NeverNeverLand" 5 lines 28-SEP-1993 11:02
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No. He said that every moment was determined by the one prior to
that moment. Every choice you make, every breath you take, is pre
decided, even if it is unknown to us.
Tas
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Note 46.127 Deep Thoughts....By Us 127 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 4 lines 28-SEP-1993 11:11
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Well that's a matter of opinion. I don't beleive in predeterminism...
-Dank
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Note 46.128 Deep Thoughts....By Us 128 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "We're off to NeverNeverLand" 7 lines 28-SEP-1993 11:48
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I don't believe it either. I think that the events of the immediate
and far gone past have an influence on the events to immdeiatley
happen, but they certainly don't determine them. People determine
things, and I also happen to believe in chance, so that also determines
things.
Tas
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Note 46.129 Deep Thoughts....By Us 129 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 5 lines 29-SEP-1993 12:41
-< the logic... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said before, I will bring in the logical argument for determinism,
and some prime examples when I get the chance to go home and dig for
them... You guys are getting closer to understanding what it is
though...
the Anti-Christ
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Note 46.130 Deep Thoughts....By Us 130 of 256
LEVVAX::RWR2875 "The Second Hand Unwinds..." 5 lines 1-OCT-1993 03:10
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Duh... umm.. deep thought, yeah... umm...pfffffffffffffft.
*Ricey*
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Note 46.131 Deep Thoughts....By Us 131 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "A 6ULDV8" 3 lines 1-OCT-1993 09:23
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Maybe it's time for you to go to bed.
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Note 46.132 Deep Thoughts....By Us 132 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 3 lines 1-OCT-1993 16:52
-< my deep thought for the day >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it is always time for Ricey to go to bed. he doesn't reply unless
it is after 2 am and before noon! go to sleep you maniac! :)
Pook
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Note 46.133 Deep Thoughts....By Us 133 of 256
LEVVAX::RWR2875 "The Second Hand Unwinds..." 6 lines 1-OCT-1993 18:12
-< *Ricey* the immortal doesn't need sleep! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, at least I ain't the one who's droppin' courses and screwing up!
pfft.
*Ricey*
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Note 46.134 Deep Thoughts....By Us 134 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 11 lines 4-OCT-1993 16:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of immortals, any up for a good argument about god? I am. :)
The christian god really irritates me, with all his contradictions and
rules (yes Greg, I'm gonna challenge your beliefs).
What kind of all knowing all caring bum does what he does? How can he
let all that shit happen?
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Note 46.135 Deep Thoughts....By Us 135 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 16 lines 4-OCT-1993 19:49
-< I have more to say.... >-
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I understand the arguments but will leave to those who are religious.
I personally think God is an egotistical buttmunch.
From what I know of the religion,
God is all loving, yet you go straight to hell for not worshiping him
God is all caring, yet has his followers force feed that religion to
other
God is forgiving, yet he will getr really pissed off if you worship
another god
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.136 Deep Thoughts....By Us 136 of 256
LEVVAX::JDP0492 "BLAH BLAH BLAH My soul to keep..." 3 lines 4-OCT-1993 20:14
-< I'm outta this one... >-
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I'm not even gonna start getting into this one....
the Anti-Christ
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Note 46.137 Deep Thoughts....By Us 137 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 72 lines 4-OCT-1993 22:08
-< Please read this carefully. >-
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> Speaking of immortals, any up for a good argument about god? I am. :)
>
> The christian god really irritates me, with all his contradictions and
> rules (yes Greg, I'm gonna challenge your beliefs).
>
> What kind of all knowing all caring bum does what he does? How can he
> let all that shit happen?
God gives the whole meaning of life one purpose: a trial. He's
giving us a choice, to worship was is good and live happily for
eternity(after death) or spend eternity in severe pain. It's a simple
choice. Yes He is caring, but He still leaves the choice up to us. He
wants us to do the right thing (who wouldn't?) but unless we make that
choice OF OUR OWN FREE WILL it's meaningless. We haven't proved
anything if He forces s to do something.
> I understand the arguments but will leave to those who are religious.
> I personally think God is an egotistical buttmunch.
>
> From what I know of the religion,
>
> God is all loving, yet you go straight to hell for not worshiping him
Yes God is loving. Adam and Eve were enjoying a great relationship
with God but they couldn't follow one simple rule. From that point on,
God let them out into the world. He Still Loved them but know He
needed to know if they too loved Him iun their hearts: Out into the
world they went, to live their trial. If they stayed faithful to Him
he would reward them with eternal life.
> God is all caring, yet has his followers force feed that religion to
> other
>
As far as I know, the Bible does not tell Christians to "force feed"
their beliefs to others. I does say to go out and spread the word.
That's what you're reading now. I'm not telling anyone that they HAVE
TO beleive these things. I'm merely expressing my beleifs, telling you
why *I* beleive them. I do not believe that force-feeding religion
benefits anyone. That would defy my own beleifs because the only ay to
be redeemed, is through honest, personal beleif from the heart. If I
force you to swallow a religion, then chances are that you won't REALLY
beleive it.
> God is forgiving, yet he will getr really pissed off if you worship
> another god
>
Yes. Worshiping another god, basically says that "I don't beleive that
you are the supreme being". God said, "Worship no others before me"
and "Worship no false idols". That is a sin.
The forgiving part is a whole separate part to the religion. There is
no mortal that lived, lives, or ever will live without sin excpect for
Jesus. God sent Jesus so that we may be forgiven for our sins. Sins
are a bad mark on you. If you accept Jesus as your savior for your
sins, and ask to be forgiven, you will be IF YOU HONESTLY FEEL THIS IN
YOUR HEART. Again, this is based on belief. If you don't believe then
this may seem meaningless to you. If you do believe and you are really
sorry, God knows that you beleive in Him and Jesus' venture to save
you.
I personally find this very straightforward. If something confuses
you or seems contradictory, please let me know and I'll clarify. I'll
be the first to admit that there are some confusing points in the
religion, but when you take a good look at the root and core principles
and see how they build up, they seem logical. Ultimastely though, it
lies in beleif. Christianity is not provable: If it were, don't you
think EVERYONE would be a Christian?
Oh well. Let the arguments fly. It's an interesting topic and an
important one. I hope I've shed a little light on it...
-Dank
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Note 46.138 Deep Thoughts....By Us 138 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 13 lines 5-OCT-1993 08:31
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WHY do people generalize too much about "christians"!??!
The Christian God irritates you? Therefore he is obviously alive, but
then you say his "contradictions and rules"? NOT. Sorry, I usually
don't read what you guys post in this topic, but why do you say his
contradictions and rules? More like the contradictions of the people
who don't know what they're talking about when they talk about God. As
far as rules go, it's not like yer gonna die just cuz you break a rule,
it depends how you take them, and what you believe God wants you to do
with the rules. If you want rules, become a jew.
Gerrit
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Note 46.139 Deep Thoughts....By Us 139 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 7 lines 5-OCT-1993 10:38
-< Let's hear some other viewpoinbts too.... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, now.... Don't be rash about it........
That is a good point though...When people claim there are
contrdictions, there is a spoken error somewhere. The Bible doesn't
have contradictions.......
-Dank
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Note 46.140 Deep Thoughts....By Us 140 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 30 lines 5-OCT-1993 10:57
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Shall we go into contradictions? I think so, yes.
Lets start with the big one. How can an all loving, all forgiving
god find it in his eternally good soul to ever, *EVER* damn someone to
eternal pain and torment? How could he? The simple answer is, he
can't. No matter the sin, or transgression, 'god' should be able to
forgive the offender of everything. Granted, god may feel it necessary
to cause him a little pain at first, but not eternal, not even close.
Next one. How can god be omniscient and still give people free
will? Its impossible. If god knows what is going to happen, then yer
actions ahve been predetermined and you have no choice. I know, I can
hear you saying thats not right, but it is, and it must be. god could
be the smartest guy in the universe and have millions upon millions of
scenarios worked in his head, but he CAN NEVER KNOW what will be next.
He can only make a best guess based on the information at hand. And it
may be that if there was a god that humans and animals and the universe
did exactly what he thought they would do, but he couldn't have known
it would be. He could only be very sure it would be.
Rules? Did I hear someone say rules? Yes, there are rules in
every religion, and you probably aren't aware of half of half of half
of them. Pick up the old testament sometime and read the rules they
list in there. Do you know that all, yes ALL, of those rules are still
valid and in affect for every sect of christianity that believes in the
bible? Its true, and you have probably been damned a thousand times
over in yer short existence by now. But don't worry, god is all
forgiving, remember? I covered that. Or is he?
Tas
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Note 46.141 Deep Thoughts....By Us 141 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 8 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:06
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Ok, smart one, now start quoting from the Bible showing that those
views actually come from it and not just from some preachers mouth and
lack of brain...
(Sorry, I'm touchy on this..eheh)
Gerrit
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Note 46.142 Deep Thoughts....By Us 142 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 42 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:09
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>
> WHY do people generalize too much about "christians"!??!
Christians all believe in the same bloody thing with many minor
differences, in most cases very minor differences. And according to each sect,
there is only one truth and the rest will burn. Uh oh, hope you guessed right.
> The Christian God irritates you? Therefore he is obviously alive, but
> then you say his "contradictions and rules"? NOT. Sorry, I usually
> don't read what you guys post in this topic, but why do you say his
> contradictions and rules? More like the contradictions of the people
> who don't know what they're talking about when they talk about God. As
> far as rules go, it's not like yer gonna die just cuz you break a rule,
> it depends how you take them, and what you believe God wants you to do
> with the rules. If you want rules, become a jew.
Yes, the christian god irritates me, and yes, he exists, but only the
minds of man. He is a construct of our minds to give us stability and reason
for our existence. I say 'his' contradictions and rules, yes, because they are
ones people give him, and yet continue to believe. If god were real, there
could be no contradicitons, none that humans could find anyways, he would be at
least that perfect that he could fool us. But yer gonna say thats its people
that give him the contradictions, not god. Well, god inspired the bible, and
all the examples of my previous post can be found in there. god sent his son,
if you belive that, and he spread the word. So us humans should know exactly
what we are talking about. And the rules should be better than gold or even
yer own lifeblood. god handed down his truth, and he essentially says obey me,
or die. Thats a hell of a choice.
Now, lets talk about christianity a little more specifically. Does
anyone here have any clue as to how many sects there are? I'm not sure, but
they number very high, if I am right. How can there be soo many? One god, one
truth, 100 sects? I don't think so. Exactly which sect do you wish to speak
of Gerrit, tell me about yer beliefs and how you make them conveneint like all
the other sects have over the years. Be careful, remember. One god, one
truth, one way. Supposedly he told his followers the one way, and he laid down
his law. What right do you have to modify it, because it is inconveneint to
you.
> Gerrit
Tas
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Note 46.143 Deep Thoughts....By Us 143 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 41 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:21
-< Good points.... >-
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> Lets start with the big one. How can an all loving, all forgiving
> god find it in his eternally good soul to ever, *EVER* damn someone to
> eternal pain and torment? How could he? The simple answer is, he
> can't.
I already explained this. Please try to understand. He loves us
and wants us to be with him, but if we don't believe in Him, and be
thankful for the eternal life he has to offer, he can't allow us to be
with him. Heaven is a land of perfection and souls that don't believe
would violate that perfection. The only other choice is to let Satan
do with you what he will.
> No matter the sin, or transgression, 'god' should be able to
> forgive the offender of everything. Granted, god may feel it necessary
> to cause him a little pain at first, but not eternal, not even close.
He does. That's the exact reason he sent Jesus. You explained the
Old Testament's containing many rules (sins). That's why Jesus came so
that we could be forgiven for our sins. Again, I've already explained
that If you feel it HONESTLY in you heart that your are sorry and wish
to be forgiven you will be, no matter what the sin.
I see where you are coming from. How can someone be in Hell if God
is all forgiving? You have your lifetime (you have no idea how long
that will be) to ask for God's forgivness from your heart, through
Jesus. Then you are in heaven. God is all forgiving, ONLY if you ask
for it. If you never make the effort to ask for forgivness, you either
don't believe in Him or are aginst Him, and these are basic reasons for
not being allowed in Heaven (see above).
> Next one. How can god be omniscient and still give people free
> will? Its impossible. If god knows what is going to happen, then yer
No it isn't. He may KNOW what you will do, but doesn't man that he
MADE you choose something. He tells us the choice is ours. He may be
monitoring us, and KNOWS what we will choose but that actual choice is
still ours to make. I guess an earthly analogy would be a phsycic.
He/she may know what you are going to do, but what you actually do is a
choice made by you.
-Dank
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Note 46.144 Deep Thoughts....By Us 144 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 37 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <<< Note 46.141 by LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." >>>
>
>
> Ok, smart one, now start quoting from the Bible showing that those
>views actually come from it and not just from some preachers mouth and
>lack of brain...
Since you have already said you don't agree with all the rules
christianity, let alone yer own sect, have set forth, why would you
listen to bible passages? I could argue th people who wrote the bible
were also low brained idiots who didn't know of what they speak, in
fact, that would explain a lot. But these examples aren't necessarily
biblical. The very concept of a god demands he be all knowing and all
powerful. The very concept of the christian god demands he be all
caring and forgiving. So how can the bible talk of the destruction of
the worl dand the final battle, and how few people will be saved. How
can we truly have free will if god alreay knows what is going to
happen? What is the point of testing us if he ALREADY knows? Since he
must know, he is after all omniscient, then there is nothing we can do
to change the paths of our lives. We are locked in, our choices made.
No free will. Hell. Doesn't sound like a nice place to me. How could
this all caring god do that to even the lowest among us?
Do you believe animals have feelings? I do. Howse come god made
feeling animals to serve man in the garden of eden. Why are humans
chosen above them? Why does he demand our worship in return for
salvation? He offers us the fool's choice. Do it my way or burn
forever. Thats free will for you. And how can he allow so many
problems in the world? How can he allow so much suffereing? Many
people conveniently say he has a plan beyond our comprehension. Isn't
that nice. Well, I think he is one arrogant &^%^%*^ to allow so many
to suffer and expect them to be thakful.
I can't believe in god. But why do you?
Tas
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Note 46.145 Deep Thoughts....By Us 145 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 18 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:21
-< I hate dehydrated religions >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys. Yeah you. The ones preaching for Cristianity right now. I
agree it is better than Catholic...but that's another story. Try read
liviticus (sp?) 15 to find what I have dubbed in my bibles bookmarks
the semen and rag laws. Read em. Go ahead. Have fun. See how many
times you have been dirty and haven't cleansed. Read. Some people
say the old testament doesn't count. Why? Because the new testiment
is updated? Let's update the bible yet again, this time including
gay's and lesbians. Lets include airplanes and train and gas and
houses with microwaves. We are using an out of date book for our
beliefs. Well, you are.
I feel that religion is not a crutch. It is something to turn
towards when you are confused, yes. But where do you go when you get
sick? Church? No. The doctor's office. Why? To pray? No. To let
him do his miracle and help you. Wrong? NO.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.146 Deep Thoughts....By Us 146 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 69 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:31
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Hmmm... lets see...
I have to give the people who are addicted to religion a lot of credit.
The amount of faith required to believe what is put down in the bible
is immense...
Someone tried to explain religion to me before I even knew what it was.
Given the choice (remember: without knowing what religion was), I
decided that it was hogwash. A pure fantasy story. Because it was
completely unbelievable from my (even then) point of view. Even though
it was taught to me as if it were actual history. I don't even know
why I resisted it. By all rights, I was a teachable and gullible
little kid, just like everyone else.
I know that teaching religion to kids will usually keep them religious
for the rest of their lives. I actually feel lucky that I resisted.
Because I am much happier than I would have been had I believed it...
The bible is nothing more than a book to me. A fantasy story.
I have my own set of rules that I am happy with. Those rules take care
of every situation I could find myself in. I've taken a look at the
rules laid down before the followers of the bible, and I know beyond
all doubt that they wouldn't make me happy.
Obviously, I'm not everyone, so I can't say my rules will work for
everyone, just me, and I won't claim otherwise. that's one of the
problems I have with religion. They all claim to have rules that work
for *everybody*. They all say that their rules are god's will. They
all say that if you don't follow these rules, you will go to hell.
god is the strictest entity purported to be in existence.
For a benevolent deity, I'm wondering how he can tell his followers to
'worship or else'. I'm wondering how he can claim to not actively
recruit, and still tell his followers to 'spread the word'.
And most of all, I'm not wondering anymore why a book supposedly, but
proven otherwise, written by god can have an answer to everything in
it. I'll tell you how it can: it's deliberately vague. If you want
proof that the sky is green, you can find it in the bible depending on
how you read it...
Overall, I think religion is a travesty of itself. What should be
taught in churches is how to think for yourself, and how to believe in
yourself, and base your life around living for yourself as part of a
community. Churches today are teaching you to think like them or else,
and believe what they tell you, even it means believing the sky is
green. Remember excommunication? That's what happens if you don't
warp your own mind to match your priest's. The church today is just
generating a large group of mindless followers that believe every word
handed them under the guise of religious enlightenment, *and*nothing*
*else*...
That's just not my idea of a 'good' religion... (yes, the emphasis is
on what you think it is...)
It's pretty sad looking at that situation as an outside observer. I
understand that many of them are very happy being blindly obedient. I
wouldn't want to change their lives from what they've chosen, quite
unlike the way they try to change mine, sometimes door-to-door.
I believe that if there's a heaven, then I know I will go, because I am
leading a good life. I also believe that, barring certain activities
against humanity, which I have chosed _not_ to do, my soul will decide
which is good and which is evil from what I have done. I don't need
somebody else moral views to decide if I have sinned...
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.147 Deep Thoughts....By Us 147 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 18 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:33
-< This is fun... >-
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Here's another interesting point.....
Forget Christianity and such just for a moment...
Lets' assume for the sake of argument that there is a god out there
Beyond the realms of Time/Space who created us. On what basis can we
as mortals who are subject to mortal things such as logic and senses to
judge or try to guess what a supreme being's motives and reasons are?
If this god IS a supreme being how could we even come close to
understanding it's infinite wisdom? We are completely subject to it.
We have no method of understanding it. All we know is what we can see
and/or work through MORTAL logic. What seems logical to us may not be
that way beyond the mortal realm. How can we know? We can't....
Any other comments for this? I'm interested to know what others think
n this subject....:)
-Dank
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Note 46.148 Deep Thoughts....By Us 148 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 11 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:42
-< It has nothing to do with any deity >-
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Obviously humanity _has_ elected itself to determine god's will. Just
look at the mere existence of religion... Every one of them will tell
you it's god's will that you follow them. I'll tell you a secret:
They're just telling you that because they know the gullible people
will follow them and do what they (the human leaders) want done.
Religion is just a crutch used to make those gullible think they're
doing it for a cause.
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.149 Deep Thoughts....By Us 149 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 67 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:43
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> Christians all believe in the same bloody thing with many minor
>differences, in most cases very minor differences. And according to each sect,
>there is only one truth and the rest will burn. Uh oh, hope you guessed right.
Yes, most Christians all believe in the same thing with minor
differences. This is a big flaw in Christianity. There should be NO reason
for them to form seperate "sects" since in the eyes of God, the differences
are usually irrelevant, though SOMETIMES (not often) one believes in something
that contradicts the bible, therefore is not right. However, people think
that just because they believe in something a little different, that the other
person is completely wrong. You are right, a lot of Christians believe that
and I think that's their problem if they can't get along with the other
believers, they shouldn't seperate everyone because of it.
> So us humans should know exactly what we are talking about. And the rules
> should be better than gold or even yer own lifeblood. god handed down his
> truth, and he essentially says obey me, or die. Thats a hell of a choice.
Yes, but we do NOT know EXACTLY what we are talking about. Even though
God laid down the facts in the Bible, people assume too much, or think that
God is implying something completely wrong.
Also, God only says obey me or die in the Old Testament, but then he
sent his son to reconcile this, to make it possible to actually live. No one
can follow all the rules, and no one ever has except for his son anyway. So,
Jesus died for our sins, making it so that if we just believe in him, then we
may be saved.
> Now, lets talk about christianity a little more specifically. Does
>anyone here have any clue as to how many sects there are? I'm not sure, but
>they number very high, if I am right. How can there be soo many? One god, one
>truth, 100 sects? I don't think so. Exactly which sect do you wish to speak
>of Gerrit, tell me about yer beliefs and how you make them conveneint like all
>the other sects have over the years. Be careful, remember. One god, one
>truth, one way. Supposedly he told his followers the one way, and he laid down
>his law. What right do you have to modify it, because it is inconveneint to
>you.
No one has any right to modify it. That is where the problem is.
Sometimes "sects" seem to think that just because they don't understand or like
it, they can change it around to make it "better" when really there is only
one true way. Of course, usually it does not make a difference besides the
fact that they are stretching the truth, and may run into some contradictions,
but sometimes it does matter. That is why many Christians think that there is
only one true way and that if you don't follow that one true way, you will
never be saved.
However, this is obviously not true since all you have to do is
believe and be saved. Of course, it may not be what God wants, but you will
at least have eternal life.
As far as sects go, we say we are "non-denominational" meaning that
we try not to classify ourselves as a sect as that would imply corruption
and such. Many people find this funny, but we name ourselves as they did in
the new testament. For example, I come from Fullerton, so we meet as the
"Church in Fullerton." Here in Rochester, there is a "Church in Rochester"
which is smaller, and so far away, yet is still part of the Church. I am
lucky, because the center where they hold a lot of the conferences and
trainings is in Anaheim, which is only like ten minutes south of my house.
There are localities worldwide, as far as Russia, yet as close as Mexico and
Canada.
I do have some books that I brought with me, and some smaller books
that explain some concepts, with biblical referencing and all, being
non-contradictory of course. :) These are not books like ones adding on to
the bible like the Mormon's have, but simply books on the bible and on the
Christian life based on the bible. I do have duplicates of the smaller
books, and anyone is welcome to borrow any of them to read.
Gerrit
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LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 16 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:48
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> I see where you are coming from. How can someone be in Hell if God
> is all forgiving? You have your lifetime (you have no idea how long
> that will be) to ask for God's forgivness from your heart, through
> Jesus. Then you are in heaven. God is all forgiving, ONLY if you ask
> for it. If you never make the effort to ask for forgivness, you either
> don't believe in Him or are aginst Him, and these are basic reasons for
> not being allowed in Heaven (see above).
Yes, I'm a Christian on your side, but I must point out...what about
the millenium? Did you not forget this? If you are saved, no matter WHAT
you do, and whether or not you are forgiven, you will still eventually get
there. Maybe not at first, but at least you won't be condemned to hell.
Argh, wish I had my Bible on me :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.151 Deep Thoughts....By Us 151 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 14 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:48
-< the bible is meaningless in any argument, because it isn't factu >-
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god did not lay down any facts in the bible. god had absolutely
nothing to do with the bible. The bible was created by many different
writers over a long period of time during the middle ages. Note, not
surprisingly, this is when religion first reared its head. It didn't
start when jesus was born. It started about 1000 years, or more, after
that. The bible is nothing more than a collection of fairy tales that
so many people believed.
Well, I guess if people believe it, it must be true... NOT!
If you lie, and people believe you, are you telling the truth?
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.152 Deep Thoughts....By Us 152 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 4 lines 5-OCT-1993 11:57
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Hey, keep goin' guys, I think you almost got this God person
figured out!
-jd
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Note 46.153 Deep Thoughts....By Us 153 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 12 lines 5-OCT-1993 12:01
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Can I make a request here?
Please, let's not turn this discussion into an "I'm right and you're
wrong" argument. We are all friends here. I don't hold any animosity
towards anyone for not being a believer in my religion or any other for
that matter. Let's try to tone down the ferver here a little. No
sarcasm or slams please.....
Nutrocker, I'm interested to hear where you found out the Bible was
written in the middle ages. Please explain further....
-Dank
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Note 46.154 Deep Thoughts....By Us 154 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 5 lines 5-OCT-1993 12:56
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Sorry, I was in a bad mood earlier. I like to argue when I'm a bad
mood, but I'm arguing with the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
Sorry. When i have more time, I'll write more.
Tas
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Note 46.155 Deep Thoughts....By Us 155 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 15 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:09
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bible written:
It was just something I found out several years ago in discussions
along these same lines. I have no idea if it's true. I also have no
idea if it's false. I haven't checked the validity of it, but then, I
wouldn't know where to start looking. I'm sure all records of it will
have been destroyed by the church of the time if it was true, and
(obviously) no records would have existed if it wasn't.
But on thinking about it, it's very plausible that it would happen that
way, and very unplausible that it wouldn't. The church didn't exist
until the middle ages, so why would the book exist before then?
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.156 Deep Thoughts....By Us 156 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 10 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:22
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Well my thoughts are that the jewish faith (All that existed in this
religion before Christ) had the old testament at that time. The
authors of the New Testament were the diciples of Jesus so they
couldn't have written it in the Middle Ages. The church wasn't
ORGANIZED until the middle ages, but I think there were Christians all
through the times in between.... They were persecuted, however, just
as Jesus was...
-Dank
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Note 46.157 Deep Thoughts....By Us 157 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 30 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:24
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another point:
the role of religion has changed over time. When it was first created,
it literally was 'worship or die.' Those that didn't instantly agree
to worship were put to death on the spot. Religion was viewed as an
oppression, but you believed in it because you would be killed
otherwise, and over time it was accepted as truth. Since bad things
happened to those that didn't believe, it didn't matter that the church
was causing the bad things. Wars were fought over who's religion was
better, and the victor got to religiously oppress the populous of the
loser.
Nowadays (USA, the areas where it was created still may follow the
above, in some cases) it's 'follow or you sin."
What a let down... :) A recent resemblance (in the USA) to the old
time religion was the WACO cult. A purportedly 'good' religion which
demanded fanaticism, just like in the original days. Some people say
the WACO cult was a bad form of religion, and forget that it strongly
resembled the original model.
This was christianity, of course. I guess muslem religion was created
well before then, actually right about the time that christ was
supposed to have happened, if I remember correctly. Now that I think
about it, the muslems were the semi-peaceful ones when christianity was
fuedal, and now the muslems are the wareligions of today. Also come to
think about it, christ was jewish... :)
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.158 Deep Thoughts....By Us 158 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 68 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:29
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> Since you have already said you don't agree with all the rules
> christianity, let alone yer own sect, have set forth, why would you
> listen to bible passages?
I did not say that. If you think i said that because I was referring
to preechers teachings, it's cuz most preechers, not all, do not speak
entirely the truth. They ALL teach what they believe to be the truth
however, but all of us have biases, and as we have determined, different
"sects" believe different things.
> I could argue th people who wrote the bible
> were also low brained idiots who didn't know of what they speak, in
> fact, that would explain a lot. But these examples aren't necessarily
> biblical.
True, I could also argue otherwise and neither of us would have real
proof except to examine the bible, which usually ends up in a big argument :)
> The very concept of a god demands he be all knowing and all
> powerful. The very concept of the christian god demands he be all
> caring and forgiving. So how can the bible talk of the destruction of
> the world and the final battle, and how few people will be saved. How
> can we truly have free will if god alreay knows what is going to
> happen? What is the point of testing us if he ALREADY knows? Since he
> must know, he is after all omniscient, then there is nothing we can do
> to change the paths of our lives. We are locked in, our choices made.
> No free will. Hell. Doesn't sound like a nice place to me. How could
> this all caring god do that to even the lowest among us?
It's not that we have no free will, it's that he knows what are
choices are, what our will is. Therefore, if we want to choose
something, we can, but he already knows that we will.
> Do you believe animals have feelings? I do. Howse come god made
> feeling animals to serve man in the garden of eden. Why are humans
> chosen above them?
Yes, animals have feelings. Humans are chosen above them
because God made Humans in the image of himself. Therefore,
that is why Humans have a Spirit, whereas the animals do not.
> Why does he demand our worship in return for
> salvation?
Does not everyone need some love?
> He offers us the fool's choice. Do it my way or burn
> forever. Thats free will for you. And how can he allow so many
> problems in the world? How can he allow so much suffereing? Many
> people conveniently say he has a plan beyond our comprehension. Isn't
> that nice. Well, I think he is one arrogant &^%^%*^ to allow so many
> to suffer and expect them to be thakful.
He gives us a choice to believe in him or not. If the world was
full of love and beauty, and no pain and hatred, then there would
be no need for God, and God needs to be needed just like the rest
of us. He does have a plan, but it's not beyond our comprehension.
God does not "allow" them to suffer and expect them to be thankful
for being allowed to suffer. This is a way to test them, to see if
they will still turn to him for love even during suffering, which
is very hard, but many still do.
> I can't believe in god. But why do you?
How many page explanation would you like? :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.159 Deep Thoughts....By Us 159 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 43 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:30
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> Hey guys. Yeah you. The ones preaching for Cristianity right now. I
> agree it is better than Catholic...but that's another story.
Catholic is a sect of Christianity that has grown huge, and is full
of Corruption, but we don't want to get into that...
(Many Catholics are still saved however :)
> Try read
> liviticus (sp?) 15 to find what I have dubbed in my bibles bookmarks
> the semen and rag laws. Read em. Go ahead. Have fun. See how many
> times you have been dirty and haven't cleansed. Read. Some people
> say the old testament doesn't count. Why? Because the new testiment
> is updated?
Yes, we are dirty, but that doesn't mean that the old testament
doesn't count. Many people say the old testament doesn't count
so they don't have to deal with it, so they can forget about it,
to make life easier or something when really it still counts,
while in some aspects, the coming of Jesus in the New Testament
resolved a lot of the problems in the Old Testament.
> Let's update the bible yet again, this time including
> gay's and lesbians.
Even the Old Testament included gays and lesbians even though
many people refuse to see it.
> Lets include airplanes and train and gas and
> houses with microwaves. We are using an out of date book for our
> beliefs. Well, you are.
Why? Just because technology is here doesn't mean that beliefs
change. ALL of the beliefs are laid out, and the technology today does
not refute these beliefs, therefore what's with yer concept of updating?
> I feel that religion is not a crutch. It is something to turn
> towards when you are confused, yes. But where do you go when you get
> sick? Church? No. The doctor's office. Why? To pray? No. To let
> him do his miracle and help you. Wrong? NO.
Religion is such...but the life of Jesus is different.
Gerrit
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Note 46.160 Deep Thoughts....By Us 160 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 107 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:30
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Hmmm... lets see...
> I have to give the people who are addicted to religion a lot of credit.
What do you mean by "addicted"? As in they can't help themselves
as in it is some type of drug or something?
> The amount of faith required to believe what is put down in the bible
> is immense...
Not if you can understand a lot of it, or have it explained
to you using the Bible as a complete reference and then
understand it.
> Someone tried to explain religion to me before I even knew what it was.
> Given the choice (remember: without knowing what religion was), I
> decided that it was hogwash. A pure fantasy story. Because it was
> completely unbelievable from my (even then) point of view. Even though
> it was taught to me as if it were actual history. I don't even know
> why I resisted it. By all rights, I was a teachable and gullible
> little kid, just like everyone else.
Taught to you as history is why most people turn away. I mean
who wants to believe in something that is just as fundamental as
that? If it was just all history, then what life would there be
in it? None.
> I know that teaching religion to kids will usually keep them religious
> for the rest of their lives. I actually feel lucky that I resisted.
> Because I am much happier than I would have been had I believed it...
> The bible is nothing more than a book to me. A fantasy story.
Not really. The only reason that it will keep them religious
the rest of their lives is if they see something in it, or
are completely confused. Those who see it, will obviously
continue, but of those who do not, only the ones who do not
know where to turn will continue.
> I have my own set of rules that I am happy with. Those rules take care
> of every situation I could find myself in. I've taken a look at the
> rules laid down before the followers of the bible, and I know beyond
> all doubt that they wouldn't make me happy.
Yup, everyone has morals...wow.
> Obviously, I'm not everyone, so I can't say my rules will work for
> everyone, just me, and I won't claim otherwise. that's one of the
> problems I have with religion. They all claim to have rules that work
> for *everybody*. They all say that their rules are god's will. They
> all say that if you don't follow these rules, you will go to hell.
> god is the strictest entity purported to be in existence.
You have a very common point of view here. For one thing, we
do not believe that if you don't follow the rules that you will
go to hell. I have been saved, so if for some dip reason I went
out and killed someone and was never sorry for it, I would not
go to hell. I would eventually go to what everyone calls "heaven"
but I would definitely not be ruling in the millenium. Secondly,
rules NEVER work for everyone. That is why so many "sects"
seperate, because many of them want to change a specific part
of it to make it "better" for them. This is not the way to go,
but many, nonetheless, still get saved.
> For a benevolent deity, I'm wondering how he can tell his followers to
> 'worship or else'. I'm wondering how he can claim to not actively
> recruit, and still tell his followers to 'spread the word'.
I would wonder that too if he did.
> And most of all, I'm not wondering anymore why a book supposedly, but
> proven otherwise, written by god can have an answer to everything in
> it. I'll tell you how it can: it's deliberately vague. If you want
> proof that the sky is green, you can find it in the bible depending on
> how you read it...
It does not have an "answer" to everything in it. The Bible is
not here to tell everyone the answers to everything contrary
to many people's thinking. Also, there is not more than one way
to read the Bible. Each time you read it, pieces come together
and it is easier to comprehend, therefore figuring out how to
read it by the context according to the entire Bible itself, not
to how you would like to think it says.
> Overall, I think religion is a travesty of itself. What should be
> taught in churches is how to think for yourself, and how to believe in
> yourself, and base your life around living for yourself as part of a
> community. Churches today are teaching you to think like them or else,
> and believe what they tell you, even it means believing the sky is
> green. Remember excommunication? That's what happens if you don't
> warp your own mind to match your priest's. The church today is just
> generating a large group of mindless followers that believe every word
> handed them under the guise of religious enlightenment, *and*nothing*
> *else*...
>
> That's just not my idea of a 'good' religion... (yes, the emphasis is
> on what you think it is...)
>
> It's pretty sad looking at that situation as an outside observer. I
> understand that many of them are very happy being blindly obedient. I
> wouldn't want to change their lives from what they've chosen, quite
> unlike the way they try to change mine, sometimes door-to-door.
Don't you hate dead religion? So do I.
Gerrit
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Note 46.161 Deep Thoughts....By Us 161 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 13 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:30
-< exit >-
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> Lets' assume for the sake of argument that there is a god out there
> Beyond the realms of Time/Space who created us. On what basis can we
> as mortals who are subject to mortal things such as logic and senses to
> judge or try to guess what a supreme being's motives and reasons are?
> If this god IS a supreme being how could we even come close to
> understanding it's infinite wisdom? We are completely subject to it.
> We have no method of understanding it. All we know is what we can see
> and/or work through MORTAL logic. What seems logical to us may not be
> that way beyond the mortal realm. How can we know? We can't....
Exactly!! That is why God gave us the Bible.
Gerrit
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Note 46.162 Deep Thoughts....By Us 162 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 12 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:30
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> Obviously humanity _has_ elected itself to determine god's will. Just
> look at the mere existence of religion... Every one of them will tell
> you it's god's will that you follow them. I'll tell you a secret:
> They're just telling you that because they know the gullible people
> will follow them and do what they (the human leaders) want done.
>
> Religion is just a crutch used to make those gullible think they're
> doing it for a cause.
Like I said...Dead Religion Sux.
Gerrit
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Note 46.163 Deep Thoughts....By Us 163 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 14 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:40
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> god did not lay down any facts in the bible. god had absolutely
> nothing to do with the bible. The bible was created by many different
> writers over a long period of time during the middle ages. Note, not
> surprisingly, this is when religion first reared its head. It didn't
> start when jesus was born. It started about 1000 years, or more, after
> that. The bible is nothing more than a collection of fairy tales that
> so many people believed.
Hello!? Wake up...the Bible was not FORMED until the middle ages.
It was already WRITTEN by then. And this all is the New Testament,
not the Old Testament which was a lot earlier than when Jesus
was born.
Gerrit
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Note 46.164 Deep Thoughts....By Us 164 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 9 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:41
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> But on thinking about it, it's very plausible that it would happen that
> way, and very unplausible that it wouldn't. The church didn't exist
> until the middle ages, so why would the book exist before then?
The huge money-making dead religion churches didn't exist
until then. That is why it is believed to be so.
Gerrit
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Note 46.165 Deep Thoughts....By Us 165 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 38 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:41
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> the role of religion has changed over time. When it was first created,
> it literally was 'worship or die.' Those that didn't instantly agree
> to worship were put to death on the spot. Religion was viewed as an
> oppression, but you believed in it because you would be killed
> otherwise, and over time it was accepted as truth. Since bad things
> happened to those that didn't believe, it didn't matter that the church
> was causing the bad things. Wars were fought over who's religion was
> better, and the victor got to religiously oppress the populous of the
> loser.
Before the time of Jesus, all of that was true. Also, afterwards
many religions were that way, and today, many christian sects
also are the same way.
> Nowadays (USA, the areas where it was created still may follow the
> above, in some cases) it's 'follow or you sin."
>
> What a let down... :) A recent resemblance (in the USA) to the old
> time religion was the WACO cult. A purportedly 'good' religion which
> demanded fanaticism, just like in the original days. Some people say
> the WACO cult was a bad form of religion, and forget that it strongly
> resembled the original model.
>
> This was christianity, of course. I guess muslem religion was created
> well before then, actually right about the time that christ was
> supposed to have happened, if I remember correctly. Now that I think
> about it, the muslems were the semi-peaceful ones when christianity was
> fuedal, and now the muslems are the wareligions of today. Also come to
> think about it, christ was jewish... :)
Correction. It was a "christian" sect, in such that they said
they believed in Jesus. The strength and deformation of people's
beliefs are what cause wars and such. Christ by blood was Jewish,
and he was also raised Jewish, but he was God's son, and knew the
truth. This is one reason why the Old Testament IS valid, and
cannot just be dismissed.
Gerrit
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Note 46.166 Deep Thoughts....By Us 166 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 18 lines 5-OCT-1993 13:58
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humans and animals:
who said that man was made in god's image? remember the bible isn't
exactly reliable as a source of information.
Nothing in the bible has been proven one way or the other, although
many things are close, again one way or another. Example: They think
they've found noah's ark, but I haven't heard anything else about it
since from the dig. I don't think they found it, because it would
have made every headline in the known world...
It was man's pride that caused man to think they are equal in any way
to what is described as an unequalable entity. For all we know, god
may be something no man can even imagine, much less understand,
although christianity in particular claims to know...
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.167 Deep Thoughts....By Us 167 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 29 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:03
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> God does not "allow" them to suffer and expect them to be thankful
> for being allowed to suffer. This is a way to test them, to see if
> they will still turn to him for love even during suffering, which
> is very hard, but many still do.
Are you saying that god INTENDS for them to suffer? As a test to
see if they will love him? I will never believe in a god like that.
OK, new point. why does god need our love? He is perfect, he
should have no need. And why does this perfect god choose to test his
creation? Did he purposely flaw us so he could, because I'm sure a
perfect god could have made a perfect image of himself.
As for free will, I'm going to try to explain this again. If he
knows, I mean absolutely knows what is going to happen, then there is
no such thing as free will. Omniscience implies he knows all,
absolutely. Now, since he already knows what you are going to do long
before you are even born, how are to change it? You can't. Its all
known before you lived.
Now, you could argue that god doesn't know absolutely, he only has
an almost perfect guess as to what will happen. Even almost perfect
guesses can be wrong. But wrongness implies non-omniscience. So what
happens to yer god when you realize he can't know it all. You see he
is less than perfect, and thus flawed. If he is flawed, then he is no
god, and thus he is just another being like us in many ways trying to
gratify his own needs.
Tas
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Note 46.168 Deep Thoughts....By Us 168 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 24 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:17
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> who said that man was made in god's image? remember the bible isn't
> exactly reliable as a source of information.
So in other words yer just going. "It's not true! So there!"
> Nothing in the bible has been proven one way or the other, although
> many things are close, again one way or another. Example: They think
> they've found noah's ark, but I haven't heard anything else about it
> since from the dig. I don't think they found it, because it would
> have made every headline in the known world...
Because no one cares whether or not they found it. I don't.
> It was man's pride that caused man to think they are equal in any way
> to what is described as an unequalable entity. For all we know, god
> may be something no man can even imagine, much less understand,
> although christianity in particular claims to know...
Who said that we are equal to God? Of course we can't understand
it without having any source whatsoever. it is hard to even
understand with a source, but we can partially at least.
Besides, we don't NEED to understand God completely anywawys :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.169 Deep Thoughts....By Us 169 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 37 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:18
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> Are you saying that god INTENDS for them to suffer? As a test to
> see if they will love him? I will never believe in a god like that.
God LETS them suffer, instead of pulling them out with some
miracle right away. As soon as they turn to him, in their
heart there will be no suffering, and even more. He knows
whether or not they will, so I guess it's not a test...wrong word.
> OK, new point. why does god need our love? He is perfect, he
> should have no need. And why does this perfect god choose to test his
> creation? Did he purposely flaw us so he could, because I'm sure a
> perfect god could have made a perfect image of himself.
He does not per say "test" his creation. Sorry, bad choice of
words. Also, perfect is all determined by how you define the word.
Perfect? We are flawed from the start...everyone knows the story.
> As for free will, I'm going to try to explain this again. If he
> knows, I mean absolutely knows what is going to happen, then there is
> no such thing as free will. Omniscience implies he knows all,
> absolutely. Now, since he already knows what you are going to do long
> before you are even born, how are to change it? You can't. Its all
> known before you lived.
It's still free will. YOU make the decision, NOT him.
> Now, you could argue that god doesn't know absolutely, he only has
> an almost perfect guess as to what will happen. Even almost perfect
> guesses can be wrong. But wrongness implies non-omniscience. So what
> happens to yer god when you realize he can't know it all. You see he
> is less than perfect, and thus flawed. If he is flawed, then he is no
> god, and thus he is just another being like us in many ways trying to
> gratify his own needs.
He Does know, like I said.
Gerrit
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Note 46.170 Deep Thoughts....By Us 170 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 17 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:20
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My replies are a little out of order with those I'm replying to, so
bear with me...
So far in this discussion, I've read:
1: the bible says to spread the word.
2: the bible doesn't say to spread the word.
which is it?
In the past 5 notes (or so), I read something that (I think),
contradicted what was said earlier. The above example is one... Could
you clear these up, please?
Nutrocker -
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Note 46.171 Deep Thoughts....By Us 171 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 4 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:21
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The bible says to Spread the word. It does not say to force it on
others.
-Dank
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Note 46.172 Deep Thoughts....By Us 172 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 10 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:25
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Well I have to say that this was a great coinversation. Like I said
earlier... Christianity is NOT provable or DIsprovable. If it were
either, there would be no two sides to it. It was great for
discussiuon though. As I stated, although a great deal of it seems
logical (or not, dep[ending) it ultimately lies in faith.
Maybe now we can get onto another discussion (topic).
Anybody see any UFO's lately??/ :)
-Dank
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Note 46.174 Deep Thoughts....By Us 174 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 18 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:25
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> My replies are a little out of order with those I'm replying to, so
> bear with me...
>
> So far in this discussion, I've read:
> 1: the bible says to spread the word.
> 2: the bible doesn't say to spread the word.
>
> which is it?
>
> In the past 5 notes (or so), I read something that (I think),
> contradicted what was said earlier. The above example is one... Could
> you clear these up, please?
If I had my bible on me, i would quote it fer ya, but anyway,
it encourages to "disciple all the nations" or more or less
preach and tell them, not go and MAKE them say they believe.
Gerrit
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Note 46.175 Deep Thoughts....By Us 175 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 24 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:30
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re: .168
I'm not saying it's not true. If you look in the next paragraph,
you'll see my explaination. All I said was absolutely nothing in it
has been proven one way or another.
From what I've seen among many people I know that are religious, many
people actually believe that everything in the bible is a statement of
fact, even when parts contradict each other. (yes, there are
contradictions. I've seen a list of some hundred odd things that
conflict within the written word of the bible) Everything in the bible
actually happened, no question in their minds. Why? They were taught
that it was absolutely true, with no room for error.
I say that the bible is neither true nor false. And as such, it is
unreliable.
It bothers me that religious people will use something from the bible
as absolute proof (beyond any possible doubt) for what they're trying
to prove. Why is this? Because the bible says so. Nope, call me a
doubting thomas for all I care, but just because a book, which is still
suspect, says something is doesn't necessarily mean it really is.
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.176 Deep Thoughts....By Us 176 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 16 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:33
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Re: .174
It is impossible for a religion not to say that you should force
your beliefs onto people. After all, the burning of heretics was one
of the churches main activities for almost a millenium, and still would
be if they had the power. And to not force your neighbor into a belief
in christianity would be a sin in and of itself, simply because you
must love your neighbor, and to not force them to believe in
christianity would be to participate in their damning, not necessarily
a loving act. Therefore, in fufilling the commands of the bible, you
must force people to believe in christianity.
It is unfortunate, but true. At a later time I will put up the
scriptural references to support the logic above.
The Smoking Philosopher
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Note 46.177 Deep Thoughts....By Us 177 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 7 lines 5-OCT-1993 14:36
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oh, another question...
It has been said here that the bible was written by the disciples...
old or new testament?
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.178 Deep Thoughts....By Us 178 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 7 lines 5-OCT-1993 16:11
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The majority of the old testament is attributed to either major or
minor prophets, or Moses. The new testement was written by the
disciples in the case of the gospels, or by John in the form of letters
to the early churches (Phillipians, Galatians, Collosians, etc).
Hope that clears it up.
The Smoking Philosopher.
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Note 46.179 Deep Thoughts....By Us 179 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 2 lines 5-OCT-1993 17:14
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"and man created god in his image" -jethro tull, aqualung
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Note 46.180 Deep Thoughts....By Us 180 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 35 lines 5-OCT-1993 20:14
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> From what I've seen among many people I know that are religious, many
> people actually believe that everything in the bible is a statement of
> fact, even when parts contradict each other. (yes, there are
> contradictions. I've seen a list of some hundred odd things that
> conflict within the written word of the bible) Everything in the bible
> actually happened, no question in their minds. Why? They were taught
> that it was absolutely true, with no room for error.
Of course they believe everything in the bible is fact if they
believe in the Bible! Look, I have talked to many people, and no
one has showed me ANY contradictions WHATSOEVER that had a valid
reason. There are NO contradictions in the Bible. I would like to
see a list of them also, so that I may check them out. The reason
that they were taught that it was absolutely true is because God
would not make an error in the Bible.
> I say that the bible is neither true nor false. And as such, it is
> unreliable.
In other words, it is partly true and partly false to you?
> It bothers me that religious people will use something from the bible
> as absolute proof (beyond any possible doubt) for what they're trying
> to prove. Why is this? Because the bible says so. Nope, call me a
> doubting thomas for all I care, but just because a book, which is still
> suspect, says something is doesn't necessarily mean it really is.
The reason that they use it for "absolute proof" is because
this is what they believe in. That is why the opposers try to prove
parts of the Bible wrong. Because if part of it is wrong, then
the Bible will no longer be able to be used as proof, but until then...
Gerrit
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Note 46.181 Deep Thoughts....By Us 181 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 16 lines 5-OCT-1993 20:14
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> It is impossible for a religion not to say that you should force
> your beliefs onto people. After all, the burning of heretics was one
> of the churches main activities for almost a millenium, and still would
> be if they had the power. And to not force your neighbor into a belief
> in christianity would be a sin in and of itself, simply because you
> must love your neighbor, and to not force them to believe in
> christianity would be to participate in their damning, not necessarily
> a loving act. Therefore, in fufilling the commands of the bible, you
> must force people to believe in christianity.
To FORCE your neighbor is NOT a loving act! Now to show them the
truth is, but to FORCE them to "believe" it never was and never
will be a loving act. But other than that, you are correct. :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.182 Deep Thoughts....By Us 182 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "Why am I here?" 44 lines 5-OCT-1993 21:46
-< My ideas... >-
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Well. I've waded through the 50-some odd notes totalling around
1000 lines (almost half of it repeated) which has been posted in the
last 24 hrs., and I'd like to share my views.
My own personal religious views aren't quite as involved as most of
yours. I don't profess to have done much religious studying. I went
to church when I was very young, and pretty much stopped alltogether
around 1st or 2nd grade.
I don't claim to be any particular religion. It's a question I
usually can't answer when people ask me. I just kind of mumble and say
I really don't know. And I don't.
As to whether or not I believe in God, I can't say. I don't have
any basis for a reason for or against him. I haven't done much bible
studying; I don't know much about Christianity or any other religions
for that matter. And so far, I really haven't seen any need to.
As someone mentioned earlier, I have my own little set of rules and
morals that I live by. I never sat down and thought them up. They
just kind of happened. And so far, I haven't had any great problems.
I'll keep up with them for the rest of my life, and when it's over, who
knows where I'll end up? If in fact there is a heaven, and I get
turned away just because I never had any faith in there being a god; so
be it. I have trouble believing this, however. If you lead a
basically good life, you could be damned for eternity just because you
didn't believe in God? And if you were a murdered, or a rapist, or
embezzled scads of money and were all in all a real sh*t your whole
life you're golden, just because you believed in God and went to
church?
Whatever the case, one thing I do believe in is tolerance. As far
as I'm concerned, you can believe whatever the hell you want. It's
your life; do with it what you like. Be a devout Christian, be a
Satanist, say there isn't a God. I don't care. It's no business of
mine how you decide to live your life. UNLESS it infringes on mine.
This is the only religious area I feel strongly about. Believe what
you want, but don't try to get me to believe in it too. I'm happy the
way I am. I don't want to change.
So there you are. My outlook. It might not be the best, but it's
mine. I'm like it, and I plan on sticking with it for a while.
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Note 46.183 Deep Thoughts....By Us 183 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 8 lines 5-OCT-1993 22:14
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Good ideas Cav, all completely make sense. :)
Hey, just want to re-state that if anyone would like to look at,
gander about, read, or borrow any of my Chrisitan books, or Bible for
ANY reason ('cept to rip 'em or burn 'em, ehhe) feel free to ask.
Gerrit
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Note 46.184 Deep Thoughts....By Us 184 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 61 lines 6-OCT-1993 10:49
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RE: proof and the bible
Statement of fact (and I've been saying this all along):
The bible has not been proven!!
Wow what a revelation! It is beyond all rules of logic to
use an unproven element to prove anything, let alone itself.
Think about it. Try proving a bisection in geometry by saying
"I have faith that it is so..."
You can't do it. It is impossible. You can't use faith to
prove something, especially not itself.
Also: When I say that the bible is neither true or false, it
doesn't mean that I think it's partly one and partly the other.
It means exactly what I typed: The bible is neither true or false.
Nothing in the bible has been proven to be either. It is a true
neither in all senses of the word.
Also2: I've been saying that it is not proven one way or the
other, don't read my statements in whatever way you want to,
read them for what they actually say. Don't try and read into
what I type, especially using your bible instincts on reading
into things. It's bound to be wrong.
RE: inconsistencies in the bible
The reason why people try to prove the bible wrong is because
the inconsistencies are blatently obvious and just asking to
be noticed. As I said avove, don't use faith to prove itself.
It won't work. Faith isn't substantial enough to prove anything.
----------------------------------------------
Book 67 Repercussions
001:001 I have seen the list, and it was long.
001:002 And it was researched for decades.
001:003 And it was found to be true.
----------------------------------------------
I put the above in so the bible thumpers will understand it.
The list does exist, and every single element on it has been
researched by top members of both religious and non-religous
groups, and every element has been found to be true based on
the words found printed in the bible.
Given that the bible is unproven, I find it hard to believe that,
with all the internal conflicts within the pages of the bible,
that the bible can be proven.
I'm getting bored of this discussion. I've found so many
inconsistencies in what another person here is saying. Plus,
it's impossible to discuss something with someone who uses the bible
to prove the bible, as well as changing what the bible says during
the discussion. You've only proved my point by doing that...
cheers... It was fun while it lasted...
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.185 Deep Thoughts....By Us 185 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 6 lines 6-OCT-1993 11:28
-< I thought that I covered this... >-
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Well it's like i said (again). Whether or not things seem logical to
someone it ultimately lies in faith. you can't prove or disprove
Christianity or else there would BE NO QUESTION about it.
Q.E.D.
-Dank
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Note 46.186 Deep Thoughts....By Us 186 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 9 lines 6-OCT-1993 11:32
-< They just rejurgatate it, not thinking whatsoever >-
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Agreed, when it is stated that way. But the contradictions are
there, they are valid points. The difference lies in that I would say
because of those contradictions it is not, and you would say that the
contradictions are from lack of understanding. And once you reach that
point, then yes, it becomes a question of opinion. But when someone
starts arguing with you and contradicts themselves several times over,
it makes you wonder. Yes, you Gerrit.
Tas
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Note 46.187 Deep Thoughts....By Us 187 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 5 lines 6-OCT-1993 12:38
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re: .185
QED is exactly the opposite of what you said!
-jd
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Note 46.188 Deep Thoughts....By Us 188 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 3 lines 6-OCT-1993 13:15
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No, I just meant it as "end of discussion" so to speak... :)
-Dank
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Note 46.189 Deep Thoughts....By Us 189 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 9 lines 6-OCT-1993 13:23
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Well, considering until now I never HEARD of such a list, even
though I have had numerous discussions and debates on the subject,
could you come up with at least a few? I mean there is NO reason
whatsoever for me to even believe you although you do know that you
are right in yer own mind, but for me, I would need to see at least
a few parts of the list, and look at it in the Bible.
Gerrit
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Note 46.190 Deep Thoughts....By Us 190 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 17 lines 6-OCT-1993 13:50
-< I'm an atheist...I swear to God! >-
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but the bible is still written by people, and therefor will always have
to be suspect. It exists in so many variations that what was originally
said may not even be in there. And you have to figure that each
interpretation was slanted slightly to serve each purpose, to sort of
'cross cultures'. And not necessarily in an evil way, but if there are
a hundred versions, that leaves too much ground for interpretation. The
way I see it, there were probably thousands of 'messiahs' during
christs time (maybe the Life of Brian wasn't completely off) and -
well, somebody had to come out on top, to be the most popular. Jesus
was the lucky one (prob'ly the name).
That's why I kidded the other day about man created god in his
image, I think that's the only way some people can imagine god -
man-like. Personally I think it's less likely that god is a sentient
being, but prefer an image maybe similar to 'the force' in the Star
Wars movies. Like maybe somehoenergy is a part of god.
-jd
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Note 46.191 Deep Thoughts....By Us 191 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 12 lines 6-OCT-1993 13:53
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I've been looking on the net for the list, but haven't found it
yet. Which isn't surprising since I saw the list on paper, not
electronically.
I'll let you know if I'm successful. I also seem to remember that it
was in a book, mass market, supposedly orderable from a book store...
Have fun proving the experts wrong... One comment: don't use faith to
argue against them. You won't be taken seriously.
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.192 Deep Thoughts....By Us 192 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 31 lines 6-OCT-1993 14:02
-< Just to wrap things up.....Anyone for UFO's? >-
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When I was younger, and someone said Jesus was all around me, I took it
to mean that a whoe bunch of `H'ims were around me, because that is how
our minds work. I like the force idea to.
Nutrocker, I am on your side but.......I have the same argument
about sceince. Sceince uses science to prove itself. Why are things
bigger the closer they get to you? Perspective. What is perspective?
The way that the image reflects the light. How do we know this?
Machines. How did we build the machines? Using calculations. Where
did we get the calculations from? Sceintific research. Using what you
know about to science to study science? Yes.
Religion is another form of science, albiet a less daily life one.
We believe gravity is less on other planets even though we've never
been there. We take it as fact. We use mass to find gravity. Gerrit
uses the bible to prove little points. You can't fault him. I can't
at least.
Nothing at all can be proven. Nothing. Prove that the sky is
blue. You can't. You can say just look at it and I could say that it
is green. Prove that I'm not seeing green. Proof can never be given.
We just use what is the accumulation of knowledge over the years and
build on that.
That is where I feel religion might have failed. It did not expand
over the years. New ideas have not been introduced or added to the
bible. Sceince must use what it knows to learn more about itself.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.193 Deep Thoughts....By Us 193 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 8 lines 6-OCT-1993 14:37
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Sceadeau is completely right, it sounds more like everything
resorts back to philosophy and they way we all percieve things to be.
Last night TWINK! and I were talking, and he kept on asking about
things from the Bible from a philosophical point of view and I had fun
laughing at them. :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.194 Deep Thoughts....By Us 194 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 35 lines 6-OCT-1993 14:43
-< exit >-
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> but the bible is still written by people, and therefor will always have
> to be suspect. It exists in so many variations that what was originally
> said may not even be in there. And you have to figure that each
> interpretation was slanted slightly to serve each purpose, to sort of
> 'cross cultures'. And not necessarily in an evil way, but if there are
> a hundred versions, that leaves too much ground for interpretation. The
> way I see it, there were probably thousands of 'messiahs' during
> christs time (maybe the Life of Brian wasn't completely off) and -
> well, somebody had to come out on top, to be the most popular. Jesus
> was the lucky one (prob'ly the name).
The reason there are so many versions of the bible is because English
doesn't have the same literal words, therefore, different
translators take a different meaning of the translated word,
sometimes it makes a HUGE difference too.
Life of Brian did bring out a completely hilarious point of view
of it, but just as in that movie, no one else actually had anything
important to say, know, or be, therefore, we only know the true one.
> That's why I kidded the other day about man created god in his
> image, I think that's the only way some people can imagine god -
> man-like. Personally I think it's less likely that god is a sentient
> being, but prefer an image maybe similar to 'the force' in the Star
> Wars movies. Like maybe somehoenergy is a part of god.
I myself am not one to be quite sure what God looks like...I
wonder about it sometimes too. But, that is what he told us,
so now the problem is knowin exactly what the Bible means by
God creating us in his image. I see yer point though, I mean
I don't know how many people worship a God that looks like an
alien. :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.195 Deep Thoughts....By Us 195 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9353 "Azul Palido" 33 lines 6-OCT-1993 14:46
-< Buddah-Dam!!!! >-
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Here are my thoughts on the subject of religion:
All Religion is, is a reason to live for people who find
nothing else in life. Think about it. If there is no purpose in life,
why live? Religion gives us something to look forward to. Eternal life
(or death). Religion says there is more after life than being put into
the ground.
I for one am Aethiest/Agnostic. I don't know what to beleieve
anymore. I have seen a lot of crap in my time, and am confused on the
subject. But I do know one thing: Christianity, and the belief in God,
is more false than it is true. Here is my case:
The bible -- it was written by someone dopped up on Opium. Think
about it. For example: According to the Bible, the Earth is about 5,000
years old. Well, according to man-found proof, the Earth is over 4
billion years old. What about the dinosaurs? The Bible never mentions
them, yet we know they existed. And about ages..... the "founders", or
early people--Noah, Moses,.. etc., lived to be over 800 years old each!
Wow, that is amazing, considering 100-110 is the oldest life expectancy
ever! Even if they did live to be that old, how come there were
hundreds of of generations of people? If you put them all out, they
would surely be more than 5,000 years worth!
Also, about God. Isn't he supposed to be Ever-being? Well,
*everythging* must begin. There has to be a focal starting point. Yet
God was *always* there. How????? No one can explain that one.
That it is for now. I will post more when appropriate.
Sherm
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Note 46.196 Deep Thoughts....By Us 196 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 5 lines 6-OCT-1993 14:51
-< HAHA... Just imagine.. >-
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That's all we'd need........YODA is the supreme being and creator of th
euniverse!!!!
:)
-Greg
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Note 46.197 Deep Thoughts....By Us 197 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 25 lines 6-OCT-1993 15:09
-< OK. New topic.... >-
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Sherm brought up something that I think could make an interesting
topic. He said that "nothing can ALWAYS be". I argue against that.
It only holds true when TIME is a factor.
The latest theories in physics is that there are indeed dimensions
beyond the 1st three (physical) and the 4th (time). If something
eexists in a dimension other than space (1st-3rd) and time (4th) what's
to say that something doesn't exist in a 5th or 6th dimension that
encompasses all of the 4th (time).
Steven Hawking explains that we as spacial beings sre subject to
these 4 dimensions. We have control over the 1st 3. We can move
through the 4th, but not freely. Has anyone ever thought about any of
these things? if so, what are your ideas/impressions of it? It
interests me as possible. I think it's interesting, because we can't
actually study these oither dimensions (if the y exists) in any other
method than abstract math & physics becuase we have no solid way of
intercting with them.
I think that these other dimensions would provide a viable
explanation for such phenomena as PSYCHIC abilities. Travel or
manipulation beyond space/time (another S. Hawking concept) could
enable someone to do such things...
-Dank
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Note 46.198 Deep Thoughts....By Us 198 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9353 "Azul Palido" 14 lines 6-OCT-1993 15:13
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Find yerself a blackhole, and you would have crossed into the
realm of anti-matter. A lof of good that would do, considering the
explosion that would result from the connection of matter and
anti-matter.
Time travel would be cool, yet very damgerous to our existance. No
matter how much I would want to time travel, I most probably wouldn't
go backwards for fear of messing up the future somehow. I know that it
probably can't be messed up more than it already is, but who knows. :)
Sherrm
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Note 46.199 Deep Thoughts....By Us 199 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 67 lines 6-OCT-1993 15:30
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The point about using the bible to prove the bible is being missed.
Science is proven by other aspects of science that have already been
proven, by experimentation or possibly other methods. Many things in
science are still hypothetial, namely those things that can't be proven
by current methods, and *everything* based on those hypothetical
aspects are hypothetical themselves, and thus _not_ proven.
Using the bible to prove itself is therefore a faulty proof. Since
absolutely nothing in the bible has been proven, then absolutely
nothing in the bible can be proven by anything else in the bible,
and this is where faith comes in. Faith is used to prove certain
ideas and things in the bible, but since faith itself has not been
proven, then everything in the bible is strictly hypothetical.
When something in the bible becomes proven by experimentation, or even
archeology for that matter, then I think that many parts of the bible
will be proven. Probably not everything, though, depending on what was
proven. Proving the existence of an all powerful deity is impossible
unless he/she/it exposes him/her/itself to us and proves beyond all
doubt that he/she/it is indeed god.
There is actually an analytical proof that shows that such an all-
powerful creature cannot possibly exist. It starts with the
supposition that one does exist, then proves that it isn't
all-powerful, and as such cannot exist, but the problem I mentioned
above is there as well:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statement: Assume an all-powerful being exists.
Query: Can it create a stone so large that it cannot lift it?
possible answers(only 2): yes, no.
explaination:
---
Yes: it can create a stone so large that it cannot lift
it.
problem: an all-powerful being (by definition) can lift
anything.
therefore: this creature is not all-powerful.
---
No: it cannot create a stone so large that it cannot
lift it.
problem: an all-powerful being (by definition) can create
anything.
therefore: this creature is not all-powerful.
---
Therefore: the original hypothesis is at fault, such a creature cannot
exist.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I'd like it to be done at that, it can't be. Because we're
using a hypothetical definition of an all-powerful being. And in this
case, the 2 properties of an a-pb are contradictory. Using a
hypothetical definition makes this 'proof' purely hypothetical, even
though it seems apparent that it is actually proven. I guess not
everything is obvious, is it... :)
I guess what I'm saying here is that while god can't be proven to
exist, he also can't be proven to not exist. Scientifically proven to
be unproveable... ;)
Cute, huh?
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.200 Deep Thoughts....By Us 200 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 4 lines 6-OCT-1993 15:32
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I also like the idea of a Yoda as god... :)
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.201 Deep Thoughts....By Us 201 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 7 lines 6-OCT-1993 15:38
-< Yup. >-
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Yeah, Ultimately no one can say for sure until it's too late (you're
dead). Although people have died and been revived (my mother for one)
people can still argue that the brain was not dead and produced
illusions. I don't want to argue this subject. What I'm trying to say
is that I guess we will have to wait until we die to find out.
-Dank
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Note 46.202 Deep Thoughts....By Us 202 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 37 lines 6-OCT-1993 16:18
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> The bible -- it was written by someone dopped up on Opium. Think
> about it. For example: According to the Bible, the Earth is about 5,000
> years old.
Noper, according to some priest that decided to assume a lot of
it and go back down the time chart said it was something like
5,000 years, but if you carefully examine the first few verses
it says "and the Earth became waste and void" which does not
mention when this was, 'cept that it was before creation of us,
and the time that the priest had predicted was about six days
before Adam was created, since a lot more than just six earth
days happened before that. We can go farther into it, but I
don't bother... :)
> And about ages..... the "founders", or
> early people--Noah, Moses,.. etc., lived to be over 800 years old each!
> Wow, that is amazing, considering 100-110 is the oldest life expectancy
> ever! Even if they did live to be that old, how come there were
> hundreds of of generations of people? If you put them all out, they
> would surely be more than 5,000 years worth!
Correct sir... a lot of them lived at around the same time, there
are geneologies given in the bible and it is sad that now humans
only live to be about 100-110. In the old testament somewhere,
it does mention this. If you want a reference, I could go call
my "mommy" and ask if she knows where it is, cuz I admit that I
don't remember that one. :)
> Also, about God. Isn't he supposed to be Ever-being? Well,
> *everythging* must begin. There has to be a focal starting point. Yet
> God was *always* there. How????? No one can explain that one.
True....he was here since "eternity-past"...incomprehensible by
me also...oh well.
Gerrit
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Note 46.203 Deep Thoughts....By Us 203 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 12 lines 6-OCT-1993 16:35
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Re:.181
This means that every Christian faces a paradox which would drive
all true believers to insanity. If you do push your beliefs onto other
(Note that this term was chosen to avoid quibbling over sematics, not
as a back down.) you commit an unloving act by violating their
personal space. If you don't push your beliefs, you commit an unloving
act by encouraging them on their progress to hell. Therfore, no matter
what you do, you are violating the tenets of your faith. Seems kind of
silly, eh ?
The Smoking Philosopher.
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Note 46.204 Deep Thoughts....By Us 204 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 11 lines 6-OCT-1993 16:42
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Re:.192
The arguments related in the post are a restatement of what David
Hume, the British Empirical Philosopher, was saying 200 years ago.
His arguments were later deflected by a Emmanuel Kant, who as I
understand it, said that everything is a concept of the mind, but that
they also exist in a physical reality, making a dualistic universe.
I have probably just terminally messed up his argument, so any
corrections to what I've just said are appreciated (read, Sol Help!).
The Smoking Philosopher.
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Note 46.205 Deep Thoughts....By Us 205 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 5 lines 6-OCT-1993 16:44
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Sorry to take up three in a row.
Lets move back from theology to philosophy. This is certainly
going to offend someone.
The Smoking Philosopher
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Note 46.206 Deep Thoughts....By Us 206 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 19 lines 6-OCT-1993 17:31
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> This means that every Christian faces a paradox which would drive
> all true believers to insanity. If you do push your beliefs onto other
> (Note that this term was chosen to avoid quibbling over sematics, not
> as a back down.) you commit an unloving act by violating their
> personal space. If you don't push your beliefs, you commit an unloving
> act by encouraging them on their progress to hell. Therfore, no matter
> what you do, you are violating the tenets of your faith. Seems kind of
> silly, eh ?
Sorry, I do not see how not pushin yer beliefs onto others
would be considered an unloving act. I know some christians
that believe that, but I just tell people that I am a christian,
and if they are interested, or have questions about it, I will
answer them, and tell them more if they wish, but I'm not one to
"push" my beliefs onto others. I think the only ones that are like
that are the stoopid fanatics. :)
Gerrit
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Note 46.207 Deep Thoughts....By Us 207 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 8 lines 6-OCT-1993 17:41
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ok, I have a question...some people claim it is possible (and
factual) that god has always existed. well, if you can believe that,
isn't it equally reasonable to believe that the universe could have
*always* existed according to the same concept?
I mean, thanks to calculus, we can now fathom the idea infinity
(that is, things continuing on forever). well what about the idea of
things always having existed (negative infinity)?
Pook
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Note 46.208 Deep Thoughts....By Us 208 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 8 lines 6-OCT-1993 19:26
-< Ask Heinlein >-
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Actually I think the time travel subject was a lot more
interesting, I mean, if it is possible someday in the future, I have to
believe that there can be no paradoxes, that the only possible changes
must have already happened, and therefore it's entirely possible that
there have been/are/will be time travellers among us who's identity may
never be known. Any takers?
-jd
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Note 46.209 Deep Thoughts....By Us 209 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 13 lines 6-OCT-1993 19:55
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> ok, I have a question...some people claim it is possible (and
> factual) that god has always existed. well, if you can believe that,
> isn't it equally reasonable to believe that the universe could have
> *always* existed according to the same concept?
> I mean, thanks to calculus, we can now fathom the idea infinity
> (that is, things continuing on forever). well what about the idea of
> things always having existed (negative infinity
It is equally reasonable to be ABLE to believe that the universe
always existed, except for the fact that God made the universe,
therefore that is not true. (According to Christian beliefs that is)
Gerrit
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Note 46.210 Deep Thoughts....By Us 210 of 256
LEVVAX::ETR0370 "ETRigan" 6 lines 6-OCT-1993 22:26
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My thoughts on religion...
If you spend too much time thinking about what happens when you die, you
might just find out.
-ETRigan-
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Note 46.211 Deep Thoughts....By Us 211 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 18 lines 7-OCT-1993 07:30
-< Cool thought.. >-
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> ok, I have a question...some people claim it is possible (and
>factual) that god has always existed. well, if you can believe that,
>isn't it equally reasonable to believe that the universe could have
>*always* existed according to the same concept?
Well if you believe the "big-bang" theory, scientists have figured out
a ROUGH estimate of how old the universe is by the acceleration
(decceleration) of the stars in an outward fashion. That would mean
there is a definite "beginning" to space an time. As far as before
that? That's an invalid question because "time" is an element of the
space/time dimensions. Steven Hawking does a MUCh better explanation
that I. If this is true, then God can exist outside of this "Universe"
and therefore be timless...
If anyone's interested in the Steven hawking book I've mentioned,
it's called "A BRief History of Time".
-Dank
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Note 46.212 Deep Thoughts....By Us 212 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 11 lines 7-OCT-1993 10:19
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RE -1
Becareful what you say. The big bang was an occurrence in the
universe, not necessarily the *beginning* of the universe. For all we
know, it could happen as regular as clockwork, every
howevermanybillions of years it is due to forces we don't as yet
understand completely, like black holes. So it may have been the most
recent 'cleaning' out of the universe, but not necessarily the
beginning.
Tas
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Note 46.213 Deep Thoughts....By Us 213 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 12:04
-< :) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just think of it as a repartition/reboot...
Nutrocker --
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Note 46.214 Deep Thoughts....By Us 214 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 21 lines 7-OCT-1993 12:49
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I have a theory, and it is the one that my beliefs are based, that God
_is_ Time.
Go ahead argue this one.
The universe was created by Time (God).
Time (God) heals all wounds.
God (Time) keeps us from our hurt by pushing it away from us.
Time (God) keeps on going, seeming apathetically, throwing all aside.
God (Time) has always been there, just never fully been understood.
Time (God) is a force that we cannot control.
God (Time) has brought about everything that is today, and will be
tommorow.
Time is God.
Show me one statment disproving this theory, please.
I have more similarities between the two in case anyone cares.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.215 Deep Thoughts....By Us 215 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 14 lines 7-OCT-1993 12:51
-< Just my thought >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dank...
I have thought about that. Things in the first dimension only know
the second and could never comprehend third or fourth.
Straight lines are ruled by the third dimension and have no control
over it and could not undertand fourth or fifth
We are ruled by the fourth dimension (time) and have no comprehension
of what it would be like if time was just another direction.
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.216 Deep Thoughts....By Us 216 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 12:52
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Very nicely stated.
-jd
course Yoda's a lot cuter!
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Note 46.217 Deep Thoughts....By Us 217 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 10 lines 7-OCT-1993 12:54
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True...Yoda is deifnately cuter.
But, cuter than what?
:)
-- Sceadeau
(Let's start a Yoda fan club)
(or not)
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Note 46.218 Deep Thoughts....By Us 218 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 5 lines 7-OCT-1993 13:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure we do... If time were going backwards, people would be happy
because they'd be getting younger, people would be coming back to life
even though they'd never been missed after their re-incarnation, etc...
~
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Note 46.219 Deep Thoughts....By Us 219 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 6 lines 7-OCT-1993 13:08
-< According to Hawking of course... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, 5th 6th etc dimensions can be described mathematically.
Human comprehension stops around the 6th I believe. Scientists such as
Hawking claim to comprehened suck a dimension but have no way of
interacting with it...
-Dank
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Note 46.220 Deep Thoughts....By Us 220 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 13:39
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One question, how could Time create the Universe?
Gerrit
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Note 46.221 Deep Thoughts....By Us 221 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 13:40
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I think it's all done with mirrors!
-jd
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Note 46.222 Deep Thoughts....By Us 222 of 256
LEVVAX::ENB1783 "The Smoking Philosopher" 6 lines 7-OCT-1993 15:29
-< \ >-
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Are we speaking of time in a subjective sense, i.e. how fast it
seems to pass to me, or are we speaking of an objective sense, i.e.
measured a against a constatant standard such as radioactive decay?
The Smoking Philosopher.
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Note 46.223 Deep Thoughts....By Us 223 of 256
LEVVAX::FJS3367 "Black Market Fuzzies, inc." 10 lines 7-OCT-1993 16:07
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Time could create the universe. Start with nothing. At some later
point in time, you have something. If time didn't occur, then the
later point in time would not have occured, therefore the universe
would not have been created if not for time passing.
Nutrocker --
That is a cute theory, tho...
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Note 46.224 Deep Thoughts....By Us 224 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 5 lines 7-OCT-1993 16:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what's the MATTER with you people? where do you get the ENERGY to type
constantly about nothing? everyone says EQUIVALANT stuff, but noone
puts down what everything boils down TO.
~
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Note 46.225 Deep Thoughts....By Us 225 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 3 lines 7-OCT-1993 17:40
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you got any better contributions than us, big guy? if not, then
keep your mouth shut until you do.
Pook
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Note 46.226 Deep Thoughts....By Us 226 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 11 lines 7-OCT-1993 17:43
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>Time (God) heals all wounds.
>God (Time) keeps us from our hurt by pushing it away from us.
>Time (God) keeps on going, seeming apathetically, throwing all aside.
to me this is contradictory. how can something heal all wounds and
keep us from hurt if it is apathetic. if it were truly apathetic, then
it would not care about our wounds or hurt.
also, "Time heals all wounds" is not a true statement. some people
never get over their hurt. and on top of that, this is a saying
created by mankind.
Pook
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Note 46.227 Deep Thoughts....By Us 227 of 256
LEVVAX::CAS9140 "Pookie's Prime Henchman" 8 lines 7-OCT-1993 17:46
-< that's three in a row...should I continue? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
about the universe always existing...I have been toying with the
idea that the universe is a perpetual series of "bing bangs" and "big
crunches". it never really started, it was always there...and it will
never really end, it will always just be there.
about the scientists being able to prove how old the stars
are...well, they would only be able to prove the age using the
beginning of this big bang as the starting point.
Pook
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Note 46.228 Deep Thoughts....By Us 228 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 20:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back and read the capitalized words from right to left ignoring the
line they sit on... THEN complain to me.
Pi$$ed ~
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Note 46.229 Deep Thoughts....By Us 229 of 256
LEVVAX::EJC7658 "Colds Suck. *sniff*" 5 lines 7-OCT-1993 20:06
-< deeply irked >-
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Carpe idium.
Liz
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Note 46.230 Deep Thoughts....By Us 230 of 256
LEVVAX::GKB3790 "Why am I here?" 5 lines 7-OCT-1993 21:03
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Re #228-
Why didn't you just write them, then?
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Note 46.231 Deep Thoughts....By Us 231 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 3 lines 7-OCT-1993 21:06
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To see if anyone could CATCH them... I mean, they're not FISH!
~
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Note 46.232 Deep Thoughts....By Us 232 of 256
LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Gone Troppo!" 5 lines 7-OCT-1993 21:50
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Um...wow...that was beautiful...
No really, I mean it...
(????)
-jd
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Note 46.233 Deep Thoughts....By Us 233 of 256
LEVVAX::GAK4178 "Just need a little luv..." 4 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:05
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What!? I'm stoopid I guess...what R we talking about?
Gerrit
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Note 46.234 Deep Thoughts....By Us 234 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 54 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:21
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>Go ahead argue this one.
>
>The universe was created by Time (God).
On what grounds do you say this? Time is apart, ONE part of the
universe as a whole, it is not the creating factor. It is one method
of travel through our universe. Show me that the universe was made by
time.
>Time (God) heals all wounds.
Time does not necessarily heal wounds, it causes just as many.
Does everyone remember when i brought up entropy? Over time,
everything breaks down, rocks wear away, stars die, things break down.
People heal over time, but not because of time. Time does nothing for
healing.
>God (Time) keeps us from our hurt by pushing it away from us.
In what way? Time hurtles us forward as much as it does from.
What is yer bases for saying this?
>Time (God) keeps on going, seeming apathetically, throwing all aside.
Time is uncaring yes, and God may be uncaring, but that necessarily
make them the same? Explain this.
>God (Time) has always been there, just never fully been understood.
Neither is known to be true. Time fails in certain situations, of
becomes twisted in such like black holes and other strange phenonminon
in theoretical physics. Since you think thy both have been around
forever, they must be the same? Explain.
>Time (God) is a force that we cannot control.
Yer point? You make a lot of statements, but don't back any up. I
can't control the wind either, or magnetics, or electric fields, but
does that ake them god?
>God (Time) has brought about everything that is today, and will be
>tommorow.
Time had nothing to do with bringing about anything. Time just
ordered the events, it has no control whatsoever on anything. For
instance, human healing. Time does not heal, the body heals you, it
works, time just gives a refence point.
>Time is God.
Prove this, with explanations, and then I'll have something to
disprove. So far, all you have done is make unfounded statements.
Tas
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Note 46.235 Deep Thoughts....By Us 235 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 12 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:24
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> I have thought about that. Things in the first dimension only know
>the second and could never comprehend third or fourth.
>
>We are ruled by the fourth dimension (time) and have no comprehension
>of what it would be like if time was just another direction.
Hmmm, it seems to me that if the first dimension can undrstand one
dimension above it, then we can most certainly understand the dimension
above us, the fourth. To say otherwise is a contradiction.
Tas
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Note 46.236 Deep Thoughts....By Us 236 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 14 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:27
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>Sure we do... If time were going backwards, people would be happy
>because they'd be getting younger, people would be coming back to life
>even though they'd never been missed after their re-incarnation, etc...
>
> ~
This is one of the more inane things I've read all day. People
would be rushing towwards what? Conception? The ignorance of
adolescence and childhood? People would not be happy. People would
die and be born much the way they are now, just backwards. Nothing
would change, except we would be born full of knowledge and gradually
lose it.
Tas
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Note 46.237 Deep Thoughts....By Us 237 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 14 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:30
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>Time could create the universe. Start with nothing. At some later
>point in time, you have something. If time didn't occur, then the
>later point in time would not have occured, therefore the universe
>would not have been created if not for time passing.
>
> Nutrocker --
Eh? Just because time passed, it had nothing to do with that
creation. And if there was nothing then there was nothing to measure
time against and therefore could have existed, don't forget, time is
always limited to its refernce point. So Time was created along with
everything else.
Tas
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Note 46.238 Deep Thoughts....By Us 238 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 13 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:32
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>what's the MATTER with you people? where do you get the ENERGY to type
>constantly about nothing? everyone says EQUIVALANT stuff, but noone
>puts down what everything boils down TO.
>
> ~
Excuse me, but look is talking. When everyone discuss the universe
or god, or good and evil, all you can manage is one to two lines. Like
that sums up anything, since all you do is regujatate other people's
posts.
Tas
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Note 46.239 Deep Thoughts....By Us 239 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 10 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:35
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>Go back and read the capitalized words from right to left ignoring the
>line they sit on... THEN complain to me.
>
> Pi$$ed ~
This isn't the code topic, reply with something straight forward
please, we're not supposed to have to guess what you trying to say
here.
Tas
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Note 46.240 Deep Thoughts....By Us 240 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 8 lines 7-OCT-1993 22:36
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>To see if anyone could CATCH them... I mean, they're not FISH!
>
> ~
Nothing like meaningless babble to ruin a good discussion. Go
reply in the worthless topics.
Tas
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Note 46.241 Deep Thoughts....By Us 241 of 256
LEVVAX::GPD5545 "Love makes the world go 'round" 12 lines 8-OCT-1993 07:28
-< OK. >-
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OK People please settle down....
(Settle down Beavis, you're going to hose your shorts! :) )
Tas, you've got a good handle on time. Contemporary physics states (as
far as we can tell) That space and time are VERY closely related and
are tied to gether. They can't exist without each other. Time is an
integral part of our universe. The universe is NOT a part of time..
Time has no MEANING even, outside of our universe or "before" the big
bang.
-Dank
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Note 46.242 Deep Thoughts....By Us 242 of 256
LEVVAX::EJC7658 "Colds Suck. *sniff*" 18 lines 8-OCT-1993 15:10
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RE: note 236
I would have to agree with Tas... I feel that "youthening" (to use the
Merlin-esque term) would be much worse than aging.... running in
reverse with nothing to look forward to but eventually becoming too
young to do anything on your own is much less appealing to me than
taking care of growing up first, then having my future to develop for
myself. Sure, there is the chance that I will grow feeble with age and
hit a second infancy. However, there is also the chance that I won't.
It is this chance that I embrace... with the reverse, there is no such
chance.
Just philosophizin'
Liz
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Note 46.243 Deep Thoughts....By Us 243 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 16 lines 11-OCT-1993 20:33
-< Dear Tas, >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tas:
It was just a theory to make you think. I am talking about the
universal time. Time keeps going, and is the only thing I feel we have
absolutely no control over, (we can even control the weather, and the
rotation of the earth, if we wanted). It is just my personmal belief,
one to make religious people believe that I think God has no conscious
thought. We created time for our own purposes of keeping order, can we
not say the same about God. I feel that God is just a creation of us
to help explain what we could not hope to understand individually.
-- Sceadeau
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LEVVAX::VPM0500 "DarkShadow" 47 lines 11-OCT-1993 21:42
-< Are we real or not? >-
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Dear everyone in this topic, especially Tas and Sceadeau,
When I read these notes in this topic just now, I can't help myself
becoming very depressed about this. We cannot be sure of the real
thing that is really happening in the past, the present, and the
future.
Is there really time or just an illusion, created by our
overactive imagination?
Is there really God or is it just a thing that
we made up in the past to assure ourselves that we are protected from
evils?
Is there really an universe out there, or just one of the millions
of universes, separated by dimensions, or just that it is caused by an
overtired scientist who was trying to explain the unknown?
Are the planets out there really what we think and conclude as?
Okay, here is a thought. We are constantly exposed to zillions and
zillions of ideas that are thrown to us since we are born. We are
shaped by ideas, guided by ideas, taught by ideas on what and how to
do.
How do we eat food? Should we use a spoon or a fork, or our hands?
We just pick up a spoon to eat food without giving a thought of why we
at first pick up a spoon. That is because we are taught how to eat
food since we are born so it is normal for us to use utensils.
How do we walk? We always got that lesson from being exposed to
this environment where millions are walking. Will a baby walk in an
environment which everyone are crawling? Or, just walking because the
idea how to walk is stamped into his DNA since humans start walking a
few millions years ago.
The point is that humanity is shaped by ideas. So you can
understand why I am very depressed. Are these ideas really true? Even
we have these tendencies to believe these ideas as true such that we
are humans and even blasphemizing those who believe otherwise. How can
we be sure? There is no way to find out because we are controlled by
ideas no matter how hard we try to stop them.
Tas, you were talking about "backward time". What defines time?
What distinguishs forward time from backward time? Are we moving
backward while we are having this idea that we are moving forward?
Or...is it opposite of that?
Contemporary physics...chemistry...quantum mechanics...are they
illusions because they are created by our ideas of the universe we get
from what we see and conclude of what we see? Are they true because
that these values about atoms, energy, mass, etc are constant, or...is
it our imagination that these values are constant?
In short, we are what we experience. Love, hate, sadness, and all
those emotions and feelings...are they real or not?
[I will be back soon to discuss this further. - DarkShadow]
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LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 23 lines 11-OCT-1993 21:57
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Time... Backwards or Forwards? Hah, all perspective as far as I'm
concerned. On a quantum level, it runs equally well either way. All
laws of Physics hold in "backward" time.
I believe that everything that has ever and will ever happen in
this universe is already set... given a set of variables, only 1 thing
can happen. We may never have enough variables to guess which, but
regardless, it will happen.
If you get into Chaos Theory, which says that quantum Particles
cannot be predicted, then fine. But when the time comes, it will make
only 1 move. There is only one option... the one that will happen.
Can't change time. If you subscribe to Time Travel theory, going
back doesn't change anything, because it was -meant- to happen, and so
the change was already present (and had already affected time) long
before the travelers went back. (Like when Bill and Ted found Ted's
Dad's keys). All time travel is set as a natural part of history.
Emotions? Perception of the passage of time? All part of the
pattern through 4-dimensional space. Does that mean they don't matter?
Hey, even if I am just a motionless squiggle in a 4-D object, I
couldn't care less. I think I'm alive, and that's good enough for me.
Sol
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Note 46.246 Deep Thoughts....By Us 246 of 256
LEVVAX::VPM0500 "DarkShadow" 21 lines 11-OCT-1993 22:02
-< More of "are we real or not?" >-
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Are we real or not? Is our bodies real because we can touch or we have
this idea that we have to feel to see if these things are real. Do we
have souls or not? Or... is that we have these ideas that we have
souls because we are breathing and alive and those things like rocks
and trees do not?
Are we mere parts of a massless energy that is the whole damn
thing as the universe or an omni-multi universe that is like God to
these universe? Are we parts of this ultimate cycle which in it we are
born, die, born, die, born like about that recarnination thing?
"We are desperate souls and are only alive because we define
ourselves alive. We are struggling against the whirlpool of energy and
ideas in this society, shaped by our ideas. We cry for the ultimate
one, the truth of our births, our livings and our deaths. The truth is
always slipping out of our wretched hands for we are trapped in our
ideas."
Well, I hope that this discussion is deep enough to make you to
pause and think. If not, you can best assure yourself to forget this
and go on your life.
Okay, I better go on into this world for now. See you later.
- DarkShadow (The one always in darkness, never seeing light)
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Note 46.247 Deep Thoughts....By Us 247 of 256
LEVVAX::JGM7683 9 lines 11-OCT-1993 22:33
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If we "youthered", we would forget as time went back (just like
forward), become senseless slugs (same as present) and end up going
somewhere we probably won't want to. (womb vs. grave)
Either way, we're (#%&#(*%#&.
~
(PS... Those things were there for fun... not codes.)
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LEVVAX::JDD9642 "Great solution, wrong problem" 16 lines 12-OCT-1993 07:11
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Personally, I spent a whole lot of nights pondering all of these
questions and worrying about all of these heavy pondering questions.
Then one late night it just sort of struck me that it really didn't
matter, that these aren't answers that can be worked out on a
calculator, no matter how much you spend. You can spend your time
worrying about the mysteries of life which (in my humble opinion)
cannot be unravelled, or you can spend your time living. I decided to
tear off just as much as I possibly can (with as little disruption of
others as I can keep it - which hasn't always been completely
successful, but that's another story entirely) because this is it, and
beyond this is unknown and indefinite - this is my one free ride as far
as My mortal mind can conceive. Learn as much as you can, help out as
best you can, and live while you have it. I've found that it's kept me
from dispair even in my worst moments, and I have less headaches. :)
-jd
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Note 46.249 Deep Thoughts....By Us 249 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Sceadeau and Suga-Tush" 19 lines 12-OCT-1993 12:03
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Alas, that is what this topic is for. No definate answers, just
alternate points of view to help your own. To post in here you have to
be open minded or all we will have is senseless head bashing. Be
prepared to let others thoughts shape your own.
Sol I think has captured something that I tried to say. I will not
waste time repeating it, though.
Question for all of you who are confused:
Can you equally argue both sides of an arguement?
If so, can you ever be trully sure about your own opinions?
Do you even have your own opinions?
These questions come from a conversation I had last night with a
friend of mine./
-- Sceadeau
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LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 21 lines 12-OCT-1993 12:32
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Can you argue both sides of a question?
The answer is yes, I can come with arguements to support both sides
of a viewpoint. But in order for me to form an opinion, we have to
decide which side is more likely. There may be no definite answer, but
I do think there is a righter answer. And thats what we attempt to
find in this topic. Some people believe things for the wrong reasons
or invalid ones, or even contradictory ones. You could say that it is
their right to believe as they wish, and I agree, but the beliefs based
on wrong reasons are wrong beliefs. People find it very conveneint to
say that human understanding is limited and therefore we miss out on
part of the picture and should just accept it. I disagree. Our
understanding may be limited, but it is all we have to go on. You have
to trust what your senses bring in and what yer mind makes of it.
Scadeau:
Your point about God/Time can be argued, but you didn't argue it.
You merely stated it. I could say the sky is yellow to make people
think, but what does it accomplish? Nothing but a lot of weird looks.
Tas
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Note 46.251 Deep Thoughts....By Us 251 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 24 lines 12-OCT-1993 13:58
-< Stupid Philosophers >-
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jd, I think that you are right. When you boil it all down, Philosophy
is, after all, Philosophy. The rains will still come, everyone will
still put their pants on one leg at a time, your Uncle Fred will still
have to yank apart his rubix Cube to solve it...
Back down to perspective. Can't prove it... can't measure it. But
it is that examination of how we choose to view things that tells us so
much, not so much about the subject in question, perhaps, than about
who -we- are.
Sol
An example : Michel Foucault. I can't dismiss his philosophy as False,
for from a perspective, it is true. (He says that the whole world
operates on Power and the excercising of that power - we cannot escape
its grasp). However, I do not care to take those views, for I feel he
has placed his emphasis inappropriately.
Likewise, there's that jerk, David Hume. He says we can't know
anything for sure... science, religion, our senses - all useless.
He's right - we CAN'T know anything for absolute certain. Again, I
dismiss him - not because he's wrong, but because he's stupid.
Sol
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Note 46.252 Deep Thoughts....By Us 252 of 256
LEVVAX::CJW3890 "Lews Therrin Kinslayer" 13 lines 12-OCT-1993 14:03
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>Likewise, there's that jerk, David Hume. He says we can't know
>anything for sure... science, religion, our senses - all useless.
>He's right - we CAN'T know anything for absolute certain. Again, I
>dismiss him - not because he's wrong, but because he's stupid.
Stupid? hahahhahahahahahhahahahahhaha
But lets not forget he did have one good idea. Not to trust without
questioning. Yes, all his other ideas eventually led to the fact we
act only on instinct and don't know a thing, but he was far from
stupid.
Tas
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Note 46.253 Deep Thoughts....By Us 253 of 256
LEVVAX::ABL4290 "The one, the Prime." 4 lines 12-OCT-1993 14:38
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:)
Sol
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Note 46.254 Deep Thoughts....By Us 254 of 256
LEVVAX::MSA7064 "Shadow Rogue" 7 lines 20-OCT-1993 17:41
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It is raining out and I was wondering if we could get another nice
conversation going on in here
-- Sceadeau
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Note 46.255 Deep Thoughts....By Us 255 of 256
LEVVAX::AMA4524 "Angel of Music" 9 lines 20-OCT-1993 19:42
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if it is to be, it is up to me
-TJ Schmidz
33rd level Mason
TKE exec. chair/CEO
Devil Worshipper
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Note 46.256 Deep Thoughts....By Us 256 of 256
LEVVAX::ETR0370 "We are the knights who say NI!" 3 lines 21-OCT-1993 01:09
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No matter where you go, There you are.
-Buckaroo Banzai